What Happened to the Super Thunderbolt “D”s??

[alanaker]

People from southern Canada to southern New Jersey have asked me what’s going on with this. The information needs to be put out there for the benefit of all concerned.

(See attached Word do***ent.)

[David_L6]

If I understand this correctly.......

What is this? There are already two very different motors allowed in the class - something that I am adamantly against* unless it's a pretty much "unlimited" class like Formula E / Super E. That doesn't appear to be the case here. This appears to be just a case of letting some old fishing motor blocks run with the race motors. Let those old 44s run! Surely the guys running the loop charged motors aren't afraid they'll be challenged by a 40+ year old motor that's 50+ year old technology?


*Leave the 44 mod (D Mod / E Mod) class alone!!! If it runs out of parts let it die. Until then don't bother it!

[jeff55v]

Let those old 44s run! Surely the guys running the loop charged motors aren't afraid they'll be challenged by a 40+ year old motor that's 50+ year old technology?

Not at all... BRING 'EM ON!

Don't worry David. APBA Stock and Mod have two very different rule change procedures. I'm sure APBA Dmod will be around as it is for a long time. Why mess with success?

What got my attention was this:
"To find this out this far into the season is ridiculous, unreasonable, and yes, disgusting."

Sounds like the little gear ratio fiasco we had last year with the Tohatsu.

Signing off 'till I get back from Augusta. (And the crowd goes wild!)

[reed28n]

This is what has happened!

Alan made a wonderful presentation at the national meeting. He was welcomed warmly and the Commission clearly respected all of his efforts. since that meeting some question were raised about the following.

Is bringing more old parts to Stock the direction we should be going?

Can someone under this rule gain an unfair advantage over current legal motors in the class? and will someone?

What was intended by the yes votes on Alans proposals?

We have debated these questions at length. After a great deal of discussion with your APBA represntatives the overwhelming consensus was that the proposal was made to encourage people that had super thunder bolt motors to come out and race to get them hooked. It was the belief that it could not hurt, it gets some guys on the water and they will want to step into newer equipment to race more competitively. This proposal was never intended to give someone a competitive advantage over current racing equipment.

This proposal was not presented to be a cheap way into DSH or DSR. While we recognize that money is a subject close to everyone's wallet D is the most expensive class. The biggest boat and the most powerful motors.

The D Class is the fastest class in Stock Outboard and we are working with two motors the 44XS and the Tohatsu to keep them competitive. The D class is not an economy class and never has been. In its hay day it was the premier class in Stock.

If you are looking for an economy class and an inexpensive way in there is a ready supply of 302's for sale at very reasonable prices.

All of that being said. You can run your superthunderbolt for national points. You could have run these motors locally with no issue. But this motor should be a way to get started.....not to be a run away National Champion!

Scott Reed

[Jakeroub]

I would like to point out to Scott that I built a very reasonably priced "budget" super thunderbolt d motor.

First of all, I got my hands on a cracked 44xs tower and lower unit. They were both repaired without too much hassle. Everything from the tower up I was salvage from old fishing motors(except bearings, piston rings, gaskets, etc.) I did spring for a new set of lower unit gears. I would guess I probably built the whole motor for somewhere in the neighborhood of $1200. I'd say that is a VERY good price compared to the other D options.

You might think that converting my super thunderbolt motor to a 44xs would be pretty simple, but there are quite a few special parts that must be procured in addition to the appropriate fishing power head.

If Super Thunderbolt motors were not allowed I would almost certainly be on the beach.

[Jakeroub]

I would also like to add that i can keep up with the Tohatsu's and 44xs's. My driving skills aren't all they could be and that is what is keeping me back, not my motor.

[reed28n]

The matter of the BOD on this issue

Alan is accurate the Super Thunderbolt was approved as presented with the exception of how to inspect some parts. Again Alan went to work to try to accomodate the BOD request to clean up the rules at the request of Dave Scott and myself. The BOD asked that the Stock Outboard Commission Chairman report back 30 days from that meeting with the proposed changes for final BOD approval. These rules were not as simple as measuring a tolerance of a part. There was a complete list of compatible parts. Inpsectors would have to have this list and find part numbers to inpsect. It seemed like a reasonable solution but the timeline was pressing.

The Stock Outboard Commission Chairman missed the 30 day deadline which will bump this part of the rule to 2009 under the APBA by laws. This was explained at that Maine race Alan refers to in his letter.

This motor issue has been at the for front of many phone calls and countless emails. All of which I would be happy to forward to you at your request.

I missed the dead line and that repsonsibility lies squarely on my shoulders. I will go on record that that was my screw up. Now what we are trying to do is not screw up the D class.

We had the good intention to include a few more drivers in our D class. A motor that had already been approved years before, with just a few more part numbers. It seemed simple, it clearly was not simple and needs to be examined more closely.


Scott

Thanks to Alan for all of his efforts and enthusiasm. But this issue is not as staight forward as a power point presentation.

[Fast Jack]

Help

For some reason I can't open Alans attached fies, would some one post them in text Thanks Shawn

[Merc55H]

Alan's do***ent per your request

What Happened to the Super Thunderbolt “D”s?
By Alan Akerstrom 6/19/08

People from southern Canada to southern New Jersey have asked me what’s going on with this. The information needs to be put out there for the benefit of all concerned.

For those who do not know this, the Mercury Superthunderbolt D became an APBA legal D motor on November 1st, 2006. These compete against the Mercury 44xs, the Bass Tohatsu, and the other approved D motors. (55H, and the 402xs). Superthunderbolt D motors must use the magneto ignition.

In the fall of 2007, I initiated a set of Super Thunderbolt D rule updates which clarified a couple of items and would allow more combinations of Mercury engine parts to be used as a Superthunderbolt. The intent was to both clarify the rules and allow more motors to be put together and raced in the D classes. After several iterations using input from several people knowledgeable about the older Mercury 44 cubic inch motors, I then submitted this set of rule change proposals to the APBA SORC (Stock Outboard Racing Commission). I asked this to be put on the agenda for discussion and a vote before the SORC at the annual meeting in Detroit this past spring (January 31st to February 2nd 2008). This was granted. I made the trip out to Detroit and presented the entire proposal to the SORC. This presentation to the SORC and everyone else in the audience included the use of the hotels overhead projector to go over all the text in detail, and (2) different types of 44 cubic inch cylinder blocks I brought out to Detroit to use as visual aides. I explained all about the differences between the model year 1965 and later offset spark plug 44 block and the 1964 and earlier center spark plug blocks. Also explained were exhaust splitters, exhaust tuners, water inlets, water outlets, etc…I also brought along around a dozen letters and e-mails of support for this proposal from various people and read aloud to the SORC some of these.

Immediately after my presentation, after fielding several questions from SORC members, the resulting SORC vote on this rules change proposal was a unanimous approval!

At the following days SORC meeting, I asked for a motion for a vote that the SuperThunderbolt rule changes become effective for the 2008 season. This was so moved, then seconded and the resulting vote was also unanimously approved.

So far, so good – At least we thought…

At the March 4th APBA Board of Directors meeting, board members voted to accept the new Super Thunderbolt rules so approved by the SORC with 3 exceptions. Board members “deferred” 3 rules regarding exhaust splitters and tuners, citing inspectability in the follow-up e-mails as the reason. The Board said they would work with the SORC chairman to resolve this issue and to report back with some updated wording within 30 days.

Note: Up to this point, none of this is my opinion, it is all shown in the SORC annual meeting minutes and the March 4th BOD meeting minutes on the APBA website.

Working with the APBA Stock Outboarding Merc tech committee chair Dave Scott, we generated 2 more pages of specifications that itemized which blocks came with exhaust tuners and other information. This additional material was then submitted to the SORC members for approval still in the month of March, 2008. I saw a couple of e-mails from SORC members that they approved the additional information.

Again, so far- so good. Not quite.

May 17th, 2008 At the Standish, Maine races SORC chairman Scott Reed informed me that the APBA board of directors did not approve the 3 deferred SuperThunderbolt rules updates because it’s too late.

Unless I’m mistaken, as of June 19, 2008 there still is not a 2008 Stock Outboard Inspection Manual published.

What it means:

If this holds up, the APBA Board of Directors has shut down SuperThunderbolt D racing at least in the northeast where the drivers are preferring the 1965 and later blocks. These blocks came with exhaust splitters, which are also part of the cooling system. These need to be in there to run the motor. Some combinations of Superthunderbolt motors and allowed towers need to use the fishing motor exhaust tuners.

Because of this, here’s where it stands:

A)There are at least 5 Superthunderbolt D motors and hydros now in the northeast U.S. plus 1 being put together on Long Island, and 2 more being put together in New Jersey. Out of the 5 known already together, 4 are not legal including my own. To find this out this far into the season is ridiculous, unreasonable, and yes, disgusting.
B)Even though the SuperThunderbolt rules now clearly allow the use of any year Mercury 44 cube cylinder block, only the ones made before 1964 can be used because they don’t use the exhaust splitter. Oh, and the 44xs towers that just got approved for use in SuperThunderbolt? They only fit the 1965 and later blocks.
C)Want to use the approved 35ss/402xs exhaust housing with your SuperThunderbolt? Can’t because these fit the 1965 and later blocks plus the exhaust splitter plate and also use the stock exhaust tuner to get the cooling water into the engine.
D)Thinking of using a Bass tower and foot with your 1965 or later Superthunderbolt block? Illegal on 2 counts. Both the splitter and tuner.

If true, then to put it mildly, this action by the APBA Board of directors is a big step backwards in promoting the sport of stock outboard racing The APBA Board of Directors will have changed a freshly sorted out and expanded set of SuperThunderbolt rules into a conflicting mess which has eliminated several D hydro drivers from racing.
.

[Fast Jack]

t bolt

Scott, I know of the time and money Alan spent trying to get the changes made to the D stock rules. You stated the you are resoponible for the problem. Well perhaps you should fix it , or get the help of some one who can. To say to Alan --sorry I did not get this done in a timely fashion-- is kind of hard to swallow. This is not doing the D stock class any good or the APBA in general.. Kind of like if I had been standing at the gate at Standish when you drove up and said " you have to go back - no race this weekend -I forgot to get the permit for the race in time " kind of like a kick in the gut. Shawn Cavanaugh D stock racer.

[reed28n]

Fast Jack

You are way off the mark. Why not just let Alan run the 44XS you have on the sideline?

You were standing at the gate telling me I could not race C stock if I had a 202. I could not race 25SSH if I had an OMC 25. I could not race J with my Tohatsu 15hp motor.

I think you get my point. This issue has become more than just adding a couple of parts to the motor. What the Super Thunderbolt guys are asking for is not what they sold the commission. The pitch was to get guys that have these motors to come out and have some fun. They always could locally, just not for Natonal Points if they failed an inspection. Now you have people focusing their efforts on building this motor to race the D Class competitively. And it is not a testosterone question or fear of competition.

If you show up at your local dirt track or go kart track with a motor that is not legal, will they let you race? Well most of the parts are the same go ahead.

The preferred motors in the D Class are the Merc 44XS and the Bass Tohatsu.

The Super Thunderbolt should only be a stepping stone to get started not the dominant motor.

Alan is a great guy and I respect his effort, but all that time and money spent getting the Super Thunderbolt issue to this point he could have purchased a legal competitive 44XS or Bass Tohatsu.

[Fast Jack]

Off the mark ?

Perhaps I am , You admit you droped the ball , time had expired and now the rules change will wait another season. All I asked is that you un do what has been done and correct it. If I had a 44Xs to give to Alan I would. The boat and motor you mentioned was sold before Ocoee, I borrowed it to run the Winter Nats. It was at Standish , run by its new owner. Alan is very smart and had done his homework. His efforts are for not ,because you ran out of time? If Alan wanted to run a 44xs or a Tohatsu thats his decision, I can assure you he is of the means to aquire both if he wanted. His choice is to run a motor that is available, affordable , and competative. I really think boat racing could be facing hard times. It is costly to run events and we can not afford to loose the drivers we have. Should the 3 drivers we have with the older Super Thunderbolt motors choose not to run ,our club could be looking at a loss of about $1000.00 total in entry at our 10 races. We need to keep the suporters of Stock racing doing what they do best -- promote the groth of our sport. Dave Scott is a major contributer to the groth of D stock . A few weeks ago his J parts were shot down, as were the parts Ken Hall and I had made to convert Mercury motors for the J class. I hope this matter of the Super Thunderbolt can de corrected. If I offend you with my thaughts on this --- so be it. lets try to keep the inovators and racers we have. Shawn

[sam]

Shawn, we are bound by the rules and in this case they require us to wait another year ... there is nothing that we can do, undo or redo and still have rules. The other choice is Calvin Ball.

[reed28n]

Rules

Page70 rule # 22 Exhaust splitters. Change to: Exhaust splitters are allowed on a Super Thunderbolt if originally equipped with one.

Page 70 Lower unit Option #1 rule #4 Exhaust tuners. Change to: Exhaust tuners are allowed on a Super Thunderbolt if originally equipped with one.

Page 70 Lower unit Option #2 rule#7 Exhaust tuners. Change to: Exhaust tuners are allowed on a Super Thunderbolt if originally equipped with one.

The above proposed changes were the issues that we tabled by the BOD. There was a proposed resolution to these but they will not be in effect until 2009. Everything else passed. I do not think that people are aware of that fact. The following are the parts of the proposal that passed.


Super Thunderbolt Proposed Changes: Page #’s are from the 2007 Stock Outboard rules.

Page 69 rule#1 Blocks. Change to: Blocks must be 44 cu.in. service blocks that have “Super Thunderbolt” cast in them.

Page 69 rule #4 Flywheels. Change to: Any flywheel allowable for the 55H motor shall be allowed on the Super Thunderbolt.

Page 70 rule #18 Cowlings. Add the use of the 44xs cowls with a Super Thunderbolt to the existing OEM cowls listed as allowable.

Page 70 rule #19 Pistons. Change to: Aftermarket pistons manufactured by Sierra, Vertex, and Wiseco +.020”part # 1049PS / +.040” 1049P2 as well as Mercury pistons shall be allowed on the Super Thunderbolt.

Page 70 Lower Unit Option #1 rule #1 Allow the 44xs driveshaft housing on a Super Thunderbolt with either the 55H gearcase or the 44xs gearcase with 14:14 gears. Also allowed are the 55H, 402x or 35ss driveshaft housing with either the 55H or 44xs gearcase assembly with 14:14 gear ratio. This includes the IAI driveshaft housing.

4. Allow the use of the 55H gearcase on the 44XS engines in the D Stock Classes.


The point being missed is that this proposal was made to help guys with existing equipment get into Stock Outboard and participate not for people to gain an advantage over the 44XS or the Tohatsu

Shawn, I have thick skin, but get the facts. We are trying to do the right thing for the whole of Stock Outboard not one Region, one race or one class but the membership of our category and the future of our sport. It will never be easy and we will have to navigate many gray areas.

[David_L6]

Alan is accurate the Super Thunderbolt was approved as presented with the exception of how to inspect some parts. Again Alan went to work to try to accomodate the BOD request to clean up the rules at the request of Dave Scott and myself. These rules were not as simple as measuring a tolerance of a part. There was a complete list of compatible parts. Inpsectors would have to have this list and find part numbers to inpsect. It seemed like a reasonable solution but the timeline was pressing.


Now what we are trying to do is not screw up the D class.

We had the good intention to include a few more drivers in our D class. A motor that had already been approved years before, with just a few more part numbers. It seemed simple, it clearly was not simple and needs to be examined more closely.


Scott

Now I understand. Sounds reasonable to me. Thanks for the clarification.