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Pro Rule Change - What's the Real Reason?

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  • #31
    Originally posted by bill van steenwyk View Post
    Al:

    Thank you for your pertinent questions asked about potential rule changes, etc., and also thank you for reminding everyone that divergent opinions are what bring change, and betterment of opportunity for that change.

    As anyone who has read my posts the last several years will note, I have not been happy with the leadership of the PRO Category. I have seen and personally experienced many instances of proposed rule changes to suit personal agendas, the so called "radio rule" among them. For anyone who thinks I have a vendetta against anyone on the PRO commission, you are very mistaken. I do though, have very strong feelings when things are done in a back door, hide it from the membership fashion. like took place in the National Referee selection process several years ago, all to feed someone's ego.

    If anyone chooses not to believe ANYTHING I have written here about any matters I have chosen to discuss over the last several years, send or e-mail your adress and I will gladly furnish you all the do***entation regards any of these situations. I think it also says volumes about the truth of what I have been saying in that there has never been a challenge to what I have talked about by those same leaders. If someone was accusing me of something not true, I would be on it like flies on you know what.

    As to Pat Wrights challenge to actively take part in the process, so as to bring about change and try to better PRO boat racing:

    I have been involved in PRO or Alky boat racing since 1955, probably about or shortly after the time Pat was born, as a driver, official, Nationals Referee in both APBA and AOF, member of the PRO Commission under the leadership of both Ralph Donald and Mel Kirts, served on various committees under the PRO Commission, and worked both the judges stand and turn judge positions for the first 20 years USTS was in existance. In addition my wife worked the judges stand at USTS races for 20 years. After Harry Pasturczak passed away and USTS needed someone to pull the rescue boat/equipment trailer to various race sites in the US, I secured and continued to pay his wages while on USTS trips, an employee of mine to do the job, even though he was not doing anything productive for my company during the time he was pulling the USTS trailer. He pulled the trailer for 2-3 years on that basis to every race USTS put on during that time. Based on those things and many others not mentioned, I think I have more than put my time in and made my contributions and am entitled to have an opinion about anything in the PRO Category. In addition I am also a two time National Champion, HOC inductee and at one time held almost all the competition records for my class, and still hold the Kilo record 21 years after setting it. We also are Co-sponsors of the ZAK award given each year to a driver in USTS for high point in a specific class, and have donated approximately 3500.00 in cash to that award since it's inception, plus the smaller trophy that the reciepient keeps.
    I am now 72 years old, and as mentioned previously in other posts regards racing commission service, because of the state of my hearing or lack of, I don't hear that well and could not do the job justice even if I ran and was elected for a position on it. In my opinion,that does not mean I haven't earned the right to make my feelings known about various things that I see and don't think are fair or right. So anyone thinks I am going to keep my mouth shut just to satisfy someone else who thinks the truth is not very nice, or convienent, even though it is the truth, you are sadly mistaken. I plan on behaving EXACTLY the same way I have all my life, which is saying what I think. Until there is a rule against that, folks like Pat Wright and others who have an aversion to the truth because it is inconvient for them at a specific time, will just have to put up with it, because whatever else you may think or say about what I have to say about the things I have brought out over the last few years, IT IS THE TRUTH. If some folks don't like it or what it represents, I suggest you get rid of the folks making the type decisions I have been talking about, instead of wasting your time trying to shut me up. It would speak volumes better about you, and also be much better for the PRO Category.

    Hillary believes she speaks the truth also

    Comment


    • #32
      Originally posted by ChrisH View Post
      "56 to 43.....makes no sense to me?? I have no idea why winning a World Championship in PRO should not count toward the HOC??"....

      Because its time to give OSY to the stock category and the Antiques to Vintage and Historic.

      The only thing left will be the PRO motors and 1 Hall of Champions spot. Sounds reasonable to me!

      Chris Hellsten
      Chris There is a chance that if osy and antiques were not part of the Pro's our numbers would fall below the amount
      required to be a catergory--- not good as when this happens other catergories would control the pro's

      Pat

      Comment


      • #33
        What is the minimum amount of members required to maintain a category and where can I find this info?

        per last years high points end of year listings by category:

        Superlight Tunnel has 24 members
        Inboard Endurance has 15 members
        Drag has 17 members

        There is other categories with even fewer members. My point is simply that there is nobody outside of the PRO category trying to take control of the PRO category and I have been hearing this message of fear for a long time. My opinion is that it is a tactic used by those trying to maintain their power and control to promote their own personal agendas.

        Fight the fear mongering. Think, gather information, and make your own opinion. Defend that opinion with facts and information, and people will respect you even if they dont agree with you. Arguing a point with fear, misinformation, and personal attacks may win a battle, but god help us all if it starts winning wars.

        Brad Walker
        302SSH.....Putting the Stock back in Stock Outboard

        Comment


        • #34
          Chris:

          Here are some number for you.

          2006 Total Entries in the Pro Category, 1328
          Percentage of entries that are "antique" or OSY, 40.2%.

          2007 Total Entries in the Pro Category, 1314
          Percentage of entries that are "antique" or OSY, 35.3%.

          I guess I will have to disagree with you, as I think loosing over 1/3 of our total numbers would be devastating for the category. Granted, there is a lot of growth due to the availability of new engines, but does that mean we should turn out back and forget about our history?

          Also, if you want "Only Pro" motors in the category, what happens to KPro?

          Joe

          Originally posted by ChrisH View Post
          "56 to 43.....makes no sense to me?? I have no idea why winning a World Championship in PRO should not count toward the HOC??"....

          Because its time to give OSY to the stock category and the Antiques to Vintage and Historic.

          The only thing left will be the PRO motors and 1 Hall of Champions spot. Sounds reasonable to me!

          Chris Hellsten

          Comment


          • #35
            Joe,

            What do our total numbers by us? Hall of Champions spots? No money or advertising that I see.

            Turn our backs on History........? The antiques did that when they left the category destroyed the C Service class came back and re-claimed the name and re-set all the record. If they are in Vintage and Historic where they belong we can run multi sanction races like the stock-mod-and pros currently do if people desire.

            As far as K-PRO goes. How about 100cc Yamaha $600 dollar powerhead with no pipe Kart motor bolted on a PRO midsection on gas. Then we won't be tied to one manufactuer or obsolence. Thousands of those motors around!

            Chris

            Comment


            • #36
              Originally posted by ChrisH View Post
              Joe,



              As far as K-PRO goes. How about 100cc Yamaha $600 dollar powerhead with no pipe Kart motor bolted on a PRO midsection on gas. Then we won't be tied to one manufactuer or obsolence. Thousands of those motors around!

              Chris
              Chris, this makes a lot of sense. It would then give our kids and grandkids something to run that looks like our pro equipment. And, it would have the bonus that they would be less likely to grow up and become stockers.

              I have a grandson who has reached racing age and I think this would be perfect for him. All I would need is a powerhead (and a boat) I already have all the rest that I need.

              Here is info on the web site for the motor: http://www.yamaha-motor.com/sport/pr...4/0/specs.aspx



              Comment


              • #37
                I totally agree with Chris. And this is after being involved in stock, mod, pro, super light tunnel, and drag racing, and another organization that lumps everything together.
                The way APBA is set up, PRO should be PRO. Antigue should be in the Vintage and Historical Division under Antique classes.
                As Chris said, it would then be easier for local PRO clubs to develop, and then if they wish, to add some stock or mod as per local needs.
                I also agree with Chris that the Antiques left PRO once, only to return to benefit themselves. They should not be counted and should not have been counted, for HOC with the "real" PRO. (As some people say, but I prefer to say "modern" PRO). By keeping even the APBA PRO nationals only the modern PRO engines, we are looking toward the future, not back. Would we lose entries? Sure, but let the antiques come in on say, Friday only. Or add another category like SLT to help them grow. Taking a blow up boat in the back of your pick up with an over the counter motor sure sounds more modern to me. Plus they are fun to watch. We might even gain some manufacturer sponsorship if we limit 21 century available equipment to our nationals.
                Connie Payn
                Last edited by YankeeRacing; 04-08-2008, 09:57 AM.

                Comment


                • #38
                  More thoughts

                  HOC - I voted against the proposed change, but the current PRO members voted for it so the matter is settled for now. Probably does not affect me anyway. BTW - I also believe that Kilo records are not relevant any longer and may introduce a proposal to remove these from the HOC consideration. We are a competitive racing group, not go as fast as possible in straight-line group.

                  OSY400 - Great class, I wish more of them attended the Nationals. I bet there are 30+ eligible boats within 300 miles of DePue, but we barely have enough each year for elimination heats. This makes me believe that racing OSY400 is not a priority for most of the eligible drivers and attending the Nationals is not enough of an incentive to draw them. I like OSY400 as a potential entry way to new PRO drivers, but I do not see many CSH drivers viewing it the same way. A great CSH driver told me that he does not attend the OSY400 Nationals, because he is saving his best stuff for the Stock Nationals and does not want to lose in his back-up equipment.

                  Antiques - I agree with Chris H. and Connie. The future of contempory PRO classes and the antiques must/need to take divergent courses. A goal of the Anitques is "not to develop". A goal of modern PRO classes is to encourage development and to inspire creativity and news ways of thinking about engine and boat development. It is time to cut the re-attached umbilical cord and for each to focus on its future independently. This is no way a criticism of the antiques and we can continue to race together at events. The crowds at DePue always seem to enjoy wathcing the Old Iron battling in entertaining races.

                  K PRO - We just need a starter class. I do not care if the engine is Johnson/Envirude or Yamaha. We need more children in outboard racing, period. I do not care if it is in stock, mod or pro, so long as this growth occurs somewhere.
                  Last edited by David Weaver; 04-08-2008, 10:32 AM. Reason: typo
                  David Weaver

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    Chris and Tim:

                    While the Yamaha on a Pro tower would work fne for the USTS, I think it would hurt the class overall in the long run.

                    Look at some of the families that run the class. Eldridge's, Nydahl's, my daughter and others. These kids also run stock classes that are a direct cross-over ( almost).

                    Last weekend there were 9 KPro's. How many of these were cross-over entries?

                    Joe

                    PS Either way you look at the vote, we had almost 100 Pro members return a ballot. When was the last time that happened?

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      This is a fun discussion.

                      As some of you know, I run antique once a year at Depue and really have a lot of fun with it. It's a nice change from my stock stuff and I get neat smelling castor all over my safety gear.

                      The modern pro equipment is awsome! I love to go and just watch. That being said, I do think the antiques have a place in pro but I also think they should be considered differently for HOC. My reasoning is the only guys who can qualify for HOC in antiques as it is now are really the guys out west. The eastern side of the country doesn't have enough antique events.
                      This is to take nothing away from George Thornhill, Sutfin, Nielsen etc. These guys are very good at what they do. Those guys need to be recognized. I know first hand as they usually out run me.

                      I do think its' shame when a guy like Tim Small missed out last year. The mainstay of the current pro catagory spend a ton of money, travel religously to events and support their catagory. They need to recognized on their own accomplishments.

                      Tim
                      Tim Weber

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        I was approached by several drivers over the past week in Florida and the sentiment is always the same. They feel there is a place for the antiques but not in the modern day PRO catagory. Part of the negative feelings has to do with the HOC and the resetting of old records after the antiques left and came back. It is great to see those motors out there running but it is apples and oranges compared to the modern PRO technology and equipment. When was the last time you saw the Indy cars run with a model A??

                        Joe why not look at developing another motor for KPH and still allow the OMC motor for the crossover kids. It does not sound like it would be any faster and this is PRO we can have more then one motor per class.

                        We voted to change the HOC criteria last year because a lot of drivers felt a record worth more than a National Championship was unfair and they had petioned for years to get it chnaged. I have never had a discussion with a PRO driver complaining that bonus points for a World Championship was unfair.

                        Kristi Z-22

                        PRO Commissioner


                        APBA BOD

                        "Ask not what your racing organization can do for you...Ask what you can do for your racing organization"
                        Tomtall 06

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                        • #42
                          Kristi:

                          I see nothing wrong w/ this at all, this is what our category is all about.

                          Who is going to step up and do the R&D work?

                          Joe

                          [QUOTE=Kristi Ellison;103025]I
                          Joe why not look at developing another motor for KPH and still allow the OMC motor for the crossover kids. It does not sound like it would be any faster and this is PRO we can have more then one motor per class.QUOTE]

                          Comment


                          • #43
                            I looked at this for developing a kids inboard class. Might be considered for an alternative for K-PRO? Anyways, the price is right. They would be the first 4 cycle class too.

                            http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/cta...582&pricetype= or http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/cta...emnumber=96145

                            They been selling those motors for 2 years at that price.

                            Brad Walker
                            Last edited by B Walker; 04-08-2008, 12:02 PM. Reason: spelling
                            302SSH.....Putting the Stock back in Stock Outboard

                            Comment


                            • #44
                              I told Chris I would be willing to buy the Yamaha powerhead if my tax refund is right and maybe he can put something together and perhaps we change the rules to cc and height restrictions to keep the speed consistent with what we have. My Dad had a lot to do with the first 125 motors we could keep it in the family. Your right this is PRO and maybe this is a way to find motors and keep the kids running or bring in more.

                              Kristi Z-22

                              PRO Commissioner


                              APBA BOD

                              "Ask not what your racing organization can do for you...Ask what you can do for your racing organization"
                              Tomtall 06

                              Comment


                              • #45
                                Originally posted by Kristi Ellison View Post
                                I told Chris I would be willing to buy the Yamaha powerhead if my tax refund is right and maybe he can put something together and perhaps we change the rules to cc and height restrictions to keep the speed consistent with what we have. My Dad had a lot to do with the first 125 motors we could keep it in the family. Your right this is PRO and maybe this is a way to find motors and keep the kids running or bring in more.
                                I'd be willing to buy a powerhead too. Maybe we can get some people together at Depue (I hope I have my new Krier Runabout finished by then) and talk about it.

                                I think it is very important to have a good class for kids to start in. Back in the 70's I built the first boat that a lot of kids raced, including: Mike and Tim Seebold, Eddie Thirlby, Pete Nydhal, Kieth Summers, Tim Brinkman (he was too young to race but he had one to drive), Scott Hall, my own kids and several others. I have a big project going on right now as I am rehabbing a 150 years old house or my daughter, Shannon, but I am almost done with it and then boat racing can come to the front again. Anyhow I would be willing to build a R&D boat for the motor, time permitting, next winter.

                                Attached is a photo and some information about the 100cc Yamaha. - Tim Chance

                                p.s. check out my website: hydroplanequarterly.com
                                Attached Files



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