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**Al Peffley** · 09-24-2006, 10:34 PM

Feedback and Question

Feedback - Jon Steen's name is mis-spelled;
I believe it should be "Jon Steen-Duvernet"

Question: How many points did each person who placed (1st through 3rd) get for the championship race on Saturday, and how many points for those three finishes in the regular AOF race on Sunday?

Al Peffley

R-25

**AOFoffice** · 09-25-2006, 05:29 AM

Al,
Thank you for the spelling. Here is the short answer on AOF points:
Regular, non championship race:
AOF awards points PER HEAT. That is different than APBA that gives overall points.
If you finish 1 in heat one and 2 in heat two, your points would be 400 plus 300 or 700 points for the day in that class.

For a nationals your points are doubled. For an Eastern or Western or Winter nationals your points are 1 1/2.
Note: I really like the way AOF keeps points per heat. At the end of the year you have a better indication of who the high point really should be. It is a diary of races of sorts.
Connie

**Al Peffley** · 09-25-2006, 08:17 AM

Points Table

Connie,

Are the third place points 200 and the fourth place points 100 - could you share here the entire table of points? I notice that other racers who did not make points, because they did not finish (DNF), crashed, or failed to launch at the heat start, had a "0" after their name. Most motor sports show racers with crashes

or equipment failures

during the race as "DNF", and those who did not leave the beach or pass the start line on a flying start as "0"

. I like the use of DNF because it provides more information on who started the race and who did not start in the field.

Al Peffley

**Jeff Akers** · 09-25-2006, 09:25 AM

Originally posted by Al Peffley

Feedback - Jon Steen's name is mis-spelled;
I believe it should be "Jon Steen-Duvernet"

Al Peffley

R-25

Close but....I belive it's Jon Duvernet Steen (JDS)

**Al Peffley** · 09-25-2006, 10:13 AM

Additional Questions

BTW - I forgot to ask few more questions of the AOF Exec Team:

1. POINTS - How do you resolve a tie in points for the day -- by total laps time for two heats?

If so, what is the formula for the added points for the different lap times? Is there an AOF rule book or fact sheet where all of the AOF scoring rules and racing class descriptions are written down, and how do I get a copy?

2. POINT STANDINGS - Where are the year-end AOF driver point totals posted?

I know how to get to the SLORA site, but where is the AOF National points summary website? Is it in a HydroRacer AOF forum topic area? -- this works for me if it is OK with Dan. If we use this site as a website points repository, can we donate some AOF funds to HydroRacer? Just some thoughts. Why establish and pay for a separate AOF website when this site is such a good place to communicate with other AOF (and visiting club) racers?

3. RULES & CLASSES - If AOF adopts the APBA Rules Book, is AOF going to publish a separate sheet that records differences to the APBA rules (point calculation methods, etc.) and classes? I personally LIKE the points per heat method and like the reduced number of classes.

I have been at APBA races where the points and finish placing methods vary by choice of the officials at that race, or by some divisional runoff rule (they are usually not posted at the race site or sometimes not fully discussed at the driver's meeting.) Some times it's only the Saturday APBA race that dictates a weekend race winner, and sometimes it's both Saturday & Sunday that dictate who wins.

Lesson - Too many scoring variables make the race results too confusing...KISS for new (or old) boat racers.

These questions are NOT meant to criticize AOF (you will better understand, by the end of the year, why I am asking so many questions.)

I hope you retain some of our individual identity from the APBA. I was a member of both organizations in 2006, and I would be satisfied to see them both survive if these are the wishes of the racing "community". I think a little racing organization diversity is also good off the race course in our specialized boat race culture.

Some things need to change (like too many classes running every day at a regular regional race) to keep new racers, and the few spectators we have left, interested in the sport. We also need to be better supported by equipment suppliers and boat/motor builders, or boat racing won't survive (thanks to all of you who attended the Moses Lake event.) Spectators want to see races that don't last from dawn to dusk with 12-20 classes

, and a race schedule that allows them to see the races when they are told they will be able to see them. Racers also want to race and get home at a reasonable hour, considering some have a 6-8 hour drive back home (AOF seems to care more about this situation than the APBA in my region.) Nobody wants to collect the buoys and pack up the (all-volunteer) club trailer at 0-dark 1900 on Sunday night either.

There are no big prize money purses in this motor sport -- if it isn't FUN for the racers, race officials, and spectators (comprised of mostly our family members and good friends,) then it isn't worth the trip!

So far, for me and my spouse, AOF has made it worth the trip this year. Thanks again.

Al Peffley
R-25 Pro Hydro

**Kevin Martin** · 09-25-2006, 10:55 AM

al

aof has and will continue to donate funds to dan and hydroracer, and it is our official site for aof. the year end points totals will be posted, but probably not until late october, being that there is a race in october down south. alot of your questions would and could be answered in one place, and that is the national meeting here in spokane in early november, and then that evening the year end banquets for aof,slora, and nwc combined. you can get all your questions answered in on place at one time. we are looking at adopting some of apba's rules and reg's however as you have pointed out, being different, or an alternative is what aof is all about, or you may as well call us apba2, borrowed that from a friend you know who you are

we can get you a rule book to help for now answering "all" of your questions, until the meetings in 5 weeks. hope this helps a little, kevin martin

**HRTV** · 09-25-2006, 11:26 AM

Originally posted by Al Peffley

BTW - I forgot to ask few more questions of the AOF Exec Team:

1. POINTS - How do you resolve a tie in points for the day -- by total laps time for two heats?

If so, what is the formula for the added points for the different lap times? Is there an AOF rule book or fact sheet where all of the AOF scoring rules and racing class descriptions are written down, and how do I get a copy?

2. POINT STANDINGS - Where are the year-end AOF driver point totals posted?

I know how to get to the SLORA site, but where is the AOF National points summary website? Is it in a HydroRacer AOF forum topic area? -- this works for me if it is OK with Dan. If we use this site as a website points repository, can we donate some AOF funds to HydroRacer? Just some thoughts. Why establish and pay for a separate AOF website when this site is such a good place to communicate with other AOF (and visiting club) racers?

3. RULES & CLASSES - If AOF adopts the APBA Rules Book, is AOF going to publish a separate sheet that records differences to the APBA rules (point calculation methods, etc.) and classes? I personally LIKE the points per heat method and like the reduced number of classes.

I have been at APBA races where the points and finish placing methods vary by choice of the officials at that race, or by some divisional runoff rule (they are usually not posted at the race site or sometimes not fully discussed at the driver's meeting.) Some times it's only the Saturday APBA race that dictates a weekend race winner, and sometimes it's both Saturday & Sunday that dictate who wins.

Lesson - Too many scoring variables make the race results too confusing...KISS for new (or old) boat racers.

These questions are NOT meant to criticize AOF (you will better understand, by the end of the year, why I am asking so many questions.)

I hope you retain some of our individual identity from the APBA. I was a member of both organizations in 2006, and I would be satisfied to see them both survive if these are the wishes of the racing "community". I think a little racing organization diversity is also good off the race course in our specialized boat race culture.

Some things need to change (like too many classes running every day at a regular regional race) to keep new racers, and the few spectators we have left, interested in the sport. We also need to be better supported by equipment suppliers and boat/motor builders, or boat racing won't survive (thanks to all of you who attended the Moses Lake event.) Spectators want to see races that don't last from dawn to dusk with 12-20 classes

, and a race schedule that allows them to see the races when they are told they will be able to see them. Racers also want to race and get home at a reasonable hour, considering some have a 6-8 hour drive back home (AOF seems to care more about this situation than the APBA in my region.) Nobody wants to collect the buoys and pack up the (all-volunteer) club trailer at 0-dark 1900 on Sunday night either.

There are no big prize money purses in this motor sport -- if it isn't FUN for the racers, race officials, and spectators (comprised of mostly our family members and good friends,) then it isn't worth the trip!

So far, for me and my spouse, AOF has made it worth the trip this year. Thanks again.

Al Peffley
R-25 Pro Hydro

Hey Al,

AOF is a full time sponsor of HydroRacer.Net, Kevin Martin, Connie and the whole AOF crew including Carl Staron who will not let me take his picture

**Jerkizoid** · 09-25-2006, 02:14 PM

I think the Sat and Sunday results for second place in the 468 Nostalgia class are switched. Mike Devore did get second for Saturday but crashed on Sunday making Robbie Hampton second and Mike Devore a 0 or DNF for the separate Sunday race. Will some one check this out, his boat number is SS76. The rest looks correct for Nostalgia.

**Al Peffley** · 09-25-2006, 11:17 PM

Learning more about AOF

Thanks for the added information on the AOF national meeting and rules/class information, Kev.

Please provide me with more information on the November AOF meeting date(s) and agenda in Spokane to the email address below, when someone has the extra time to do so. Is the meeting also open to visiting/general AOF racing members? I would really appreciate getting some existing AOF race rules & management information in the mean time to read -- it may answer a few of my basic questions in the dialogue above (before the meeting in November.) I am willing to repay someone for the postage to send me the information package and hard copy repro costs, if the requested AOF information cannot be sent to me electronically in a MS Word files via email (I have a Mac

and a PC

) -- save a tree for new or repair materials boat wood, if you can.

(P.S. - Hey Dan, why doesn't your profanity checker recognize the word "do***ent", instead of sensoring the three letter word association being blanked in the middle of the word by asterisks????)

Al Peffley

1300 Holly Street
Kelso, WA 98626-4704
Email address: team_excalibur@hotmail.com
Home telephone: 360-423-4668

**AOFoffice** · 09-26-2006, 06:35 AM

Hi Al,
I will send you a rulebook. No problem. I am trying to finish up points so they will be posted soon. We will have everything but a few classes which were moved from the Eastern Divisionals to Florida to be run in October in Lake Placid.
I am hoping to post the rulebook also on the AOF section as a sticky. I will break it up in sections as I don't want anything to go into overload on Hydroracer.
I wil also answer each of your very insightful questions about points, etc one by one. I am long winded so the best way to do it.
Thank you so much for your interest. I know I am prejudiced about AOF, but truthfully, I just have to laugh as I hear all of the ideas to improve the sport. That is the way AOF already does it!
Connie

**AOFoffice** · 09-26-2006, 07:39 AM

Al, and others,
Your questions concerning points:

AOF scores differently than APBA so you might be a little confused.
The finish points are the same. 400-300-225-169-127-95-71, etc.
However, AOF awards these points PER HEAT. In APBA you would be awarded the above points, but in the end you are only awarded, say 400 for first place, 300 for second overall, etc.
The AOF points are a "diary" of your finishes all year, hence the term, high point. If you get a first and a second, then you get 400 + 300 equals 700 points for that day of two laps. Now if there is a tie, I don't care in this office because I am keeping track of EVERY heat you ran.
On a local level there may be a reason to have a first place winner. (trophies, money, etc). If the races are timed, then you go by the lowest elapsed times. (Heat one and two added together). Or, flip a coin, or split the money, fight it out, etc. AOF does not get involved much in the local level. It is up to the clubs to keep the drivers happy, AOF just keeps the points.
I know if does not sound right. It did not to me either after being an APBA scorer for so many years. But now I feel it is the best way to do it for high points. I have had a lot of USTS drivers who are also AOF members tell me that they wish APBA would keep points that way. At a USTS race they run 3 heats. Scoring that the AOF way would give you points for 3 wins, 400=400=400=1200 points for the week end in that class. Unfortunately the driver only gets the overall finish points of 400 for APBA points. The club running two sanctions in a week end in APBA will get double the points for their drivers, hence the USTS drivers sometimes have less of a chance for APBA high points.
We also have a lot of clubs that will run 3 sanctions a week end. That is 6 heats of points. They run 3 on one day and 3 on another. An added advantage is that if you would get rained out half way through, the second heat can be run on even another week end at another site if everyone is in agreement. There is a lot of freedom for the clubs.
A nationals pays double points. A divisionals is one and 1/2.
This is all explained in the rulebook.
A sanction is $60. A sanction includes 2 heats. A club can run two sanctions, or 4 laps a week end for $120. They can run three, or 6 laps for $180, or if they want they can buy a half a sanction, or one heat for $30. That gives their drivers an extra heat of points, gets them more entry money and the drivers more time on the water.
Keep asking if I did not explain it correctly.
Connie

**AOFoffice** · 09-26-2006, 07:53 AM

more questions answered:
Al wrote:
3. RULES & CLASSES - If AOF adopts the APBA Rules Book, is AOF going to publish a separate sheet that records differences to the APBA rules (point calculation methods, etc.) and classes?

Al, AOF is not going to adapt the APBA rulebook. what we need to do is on the technical end so that rigs can run both AOF and APBA without any changes. It is my opinion that the names should also be the same. AOF does combine more classes by speed than APBA, so there are some tricky issues there, but this can be worked out. One of the bigges differences right now is in wights. We need to be uniform. However, that is my opinion. Tony Staron and I argue about this allof the time as he likes the way AOF is right now and doesn't want a change. He thinks our system is the right one and APBA should be the ones to conform. This will always be a battle, but some change is needed.

I hope you retain some of our individual identity from the APBA. I was a member of both organizations in 2006, and I would be satisfied to see them both survive if these are the wishes of the racing "community". I think a little racing organization diversity is also good off the race course in our specialized boat race culture.

Al, AOF is very much a democracy. Eveyone gets one vote. Everyone. A director or commissioner holds no more weight in voting. Any changes are done by the majority. Sometimes this is not the best method, (we don't always know what is best for us) but it probably pays off in the end.

Some things need to change (like too many classes running every day at a regular regional race) to keep new racers, and the few spectators we have left, interested in the sport.

In AOF you can run whatever you bring. If you want to run only 250 cc runabout for a week end, then run them several times getting points for each heat. There is no reason to schedule anything but what you want to run in your club. The same is true for APBA. I don't undestand why there is a need to cut classes. Just cut the classes being scheduled. This works out great for AOF clubs because our sanctions at $60 and our insurance at only $200 a week end makes it possible to run fewer classes and still make a profit.

There are no big prize money purses in this motor sport -- if it isn't FUN for the racers, race officials, and spectators (comprised of mostly our family members and good friends,) then it isn't worth the trip!

You are so right on with the above. Even what sounds like a big purse, say $4000 isn't in the end. If you have 40 racers and you divide it up that is only $100 each. If you give it to the top drivers in 20 classes then that is only $200. We need to remember we race for fun. AOF is non profit and we encourage our drivers to race for fun and if there is money, to race for charities, or to give back to the clubs to do some promoting. We need to build our sport from the bottom up, not from the top down.

Connie

**Al Peffley** · 09-26-2006, 11:51 PM

Thanks Connie

Connie,

Thanks for all of this information presented in a thoughtful way. I know nothing is "set in stone"

, but it helps me to decide my course of action

for next year's racing season.

Best Regards,
Al Peffley

**Jerkizoid** · 09-27-2006, 02:03 PM

Originally posted by MrsJeRk

I think the Sat and Sunday results for second place in the 468 Nostalgia class are switched. Mike Devore did get second for Saturday but crashed on Sunday making Robbie Hampton second and Mike Devore a 0 or DNF for the separate Sunday race. Will some one check this out, his boat number is SS76. The rest looks correct for Nostalgia.

Sorry about that, Mike jumped the start so he should not have placed in any of Saturdays or Sundays events. Jumped on Saturday, and crashed on Sunday, should not make him second on any list.

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