J Motors, now what do we do...

[ryan_4z]

Ryan your understanding of the history of stock racing may not be as deep as you have been led to believe.

Sam, I never said my knowledge of Stock racing history was deep. I believe I said, "I know a little bit." I meant that quite literally, not sarcastically.

36 was a fairly popular class for many years ... the briefly run class you refer to was probably the 35ss class that "replaced" 36 as part of the 25ss "deal".

While I may have been wrong about the number of years that the 36 class was around(I have confirmed that I was), I back my statement that it's popularity was lacking. I don't believe that the 36 class ever had anywhere near the participation numbers of A, 15, 25, B, C or D(almost every single stock class) in the 70s. As for the 35 class, there is no confusion, I actually knew of both classes before you enlightened me.

OMC produced no racing equipment from about 1940 until 1967 (the owner, Briggs, had a very strict policy against racing); Mercury started producing racing parts in 1950 ... after Champion and Martin started to dilute the "pure stock" pleasure motor racing that Merc's owner Carl Kiekhaefer preferred, fat lower units, tall towers and all. The Merc racing stuff evolved without competition from OMC ... which is why Kiekhaefer was able to pass off fishing motors with racing towers and lower units as "Stock Racing" motors.

As for the specific dates in history, I won't argue with you as they have no bearing on the subject at hand.

As far as racing with the bulky lower units and tall motors ... all that would be needed would be boats built class specific ... pretty much as they are now: You would not race a boat built for ASH in FEH nor the other way around.

This is obvious. The problem occurs when you have to run a 15 or 20 hp motor on a "C" size boat. That kind of dilutes the excitment aspect just a bit. Fast is relative. Fifty-five mph is fast in an 8' boat, not so much in a 10' boat. That is one of the key aspects of racing. I WANNA GO FAST!!!!!

[raceright]

Sam, I never said my knowledge of Stock racing history was deep. I believe I said, "I know a little bit." I meant that quite literally, not sarcastically.


While I may have been wrong about the number of years that the 36 class was around(I have confirmed that I was), I back my statement that it's popularity was lacking. I don't believe that the 36 class ever had anywhere near the participation numbers of A, 15, 25, B, C or D(almost every single stock class) in the 70s. As for the 35 class, there is no confusion, I actually knew of both classes before you enlightened me.


As for the specific dates in history, I won't argue with you as they have no bearing on the subject at hand.


This is obvious. The problem occurs when you have to run a 15 or 20 hp motor on a "C" size boat. That kind of dilutes the excitment aspect just a bit. Fast is relative. Fifty-five mph is fast in an 8' boat, not so much in a 10' boat. That is one of the key aspects of racing. I WANNA GO FAST!!!!!

Get capsule trained and we will have you go fast...

Pat

[sam]

How about 80 in a 12 footer?

Fast is relative. Fifty-five mph is fast in an 8' boat, not so much in a 10' boat. That is one of the key aspects of racing. I WANNA GO FAST!!!!!

Ryan, that, as an argument against using gearshift stock motors, fails because it also would call for deletion of existing slower "less exciting" classes such as A and AXS. Like the current B Stock classes, 36 was more popular in some regions than others ... which also fails to support your argument against such motors, unless you are also calling for elimination of all classes not consistently run in all regions.

In recent decades there have been advances in prop and boat technology that got full gearshift motors running almost as fast as "racing" motors of near the same size. The old OPC Mod C racing class ran little tunnel hulls about 12 feet long with motors based on 40-ish hp powerheads with slightly modified gearshift lower units (bullets, maybe low water inlets) at about 80 mph in competition (the kilo record was almost 90). Is 80 in a 12 foot boat fast? This link is to a thread on Screamandfly with some pictures of Mod C equipment for size reference: http://forums.screamandfly.com/forum...d.php?t=144950

[ryan_4z]

Ryan, that, as an argument against using gearshift stock motors, fails because it also would call for deletion of existing slower "less exciting" classes such as A and AXS. Like the current B Stock classes, 36 was more popular in some regions than others ... which also fails to support your argument against such motors, unless you are also calling for elimination of all classes not consistently run in all regions.

You'd have to show me numbers to convince me. Also, I have quite frequently called for some kind of participation requirements for national status of classes.

In recent decades there have been advances in prop and boat technology that got full gearshift motors running almost as fast as "racing" motors of near the same size. The old OPC Mod C racing class ran little tunnel hulls about 12 feet long with motors based on 40-ish hp powerheads with slightly modified gearshift lower units (bullets, maybe low water inlets) at about 80 mph in competition (the kilo record was almost 90). Is 80 in a 12 foot boat fast? This link is to a thread on Screamandfly with some pictures of Mod C equipment for size reference: http://forums.screamandfly.com/forum...d.php?t=144950

Like I said before, if somebody does it, then fine. Remember though, you are talking about tunnel boats, not at all comparable to runabouts and hydroplanes.

[DougMc]

Dean,

I hope they find the motors. It looked like some good growth for the Js in Washington State, Virginia and with the inboards.

Has anyone looked at anything similar to the NBRA novice class that runs the Yamato with the restrictor?

How about the AOF Minimost with the Briggs and Stratton motor?

AOF may be on to something positive with their idea. A desk jockey like me could build a Minimost boat and buy a motor and get a kid on the lake with in a week of seeing a race.

I thought the idea was neat and figured I would give it a try. For under $200 invested so far I bought wood at Lowes, tools at Harbor Freight, paint from Tractor Supply. In four nights I am to the point where I am ready for the decks. The decks have me at a halt for some thinking on how to get the front/bow seam together properly. I have no wood working skills and am close to having the boat on the water. My goal was to have the boat ready for Lake Placid this weekend, but it was a bit too far reaching for me.

Maybe there should be a J HARM type project using the Minimost geared toward Cub Scout/Boy Scouts, home schoolers, etc. This could be similar to Soap Box Derbys. With in a few months such a class could draw ten or more new racers at an affordable cost. I am told Soap Box Derby racing in Tallahassee went from nothing to 40 racers in a couple of years.

Just my thoughts on what I believe AOF and NBRA are doing right in trying to get new racers on the water and how we can consider their ideas and follow their lead.

Doug, 50-F
Region 5 APBA Stock Activities Chairman

PS I'm looking for a driver for my Minimost for the December Lake Placid, FL race. Any takers?

[Skoontz]

Sam made a great point about running F-N-R gear cases in J class when he mentions boats would need to be made for that gear case. We have no different situation now, as J boats, at least those that really work well in J are dedicated boats for a choked down J engine.

So, for the sake of cost, and cost alone, a family new to racing, with little knowledge can find a used motor all day long for under $900.00, buy a $200 prop, drop it on a boat, either Sorenseon Kit for a grand, build it, and go racing. A $2,000 deal and you're off getting your feet wet, learning the ropes. You eliminate a $1,200 gear foot, you eliminate the musical prop pick, and you are off. Secondly, you can take that motor, drop it on your R-7 Alumicraft and use it for a chase boat, or go fishing.

We have versitility here, and a far lessor cost. We would also have 40MPH speeds without restrictor plates.

I'm talking entry level, get your feet wet in the sport attract new blood here, not for those seasoned pros who love their set ups and motors so dearly.

I hear from many, and from many boat builders who wish to grow this great sport, one thing over and over. Ease of entry, turn key, cost effective as buzz words. The stock gearfoot on a J rig built per class would have this nailed, at least from those three angles. There could even come a time, so long as speeds were comprable, J rigs with Hotrod feet, and J rigs with F-N-R feet could run the same water.

I'm talking cost, ease of entry, and overall fun here. With the Hotrod gearfoot, and all the stuff one has to add to any bas engine, you eliminate the not so mechanically inclined novice, (little does he know he will ne mechanically inclined soon) and you add at least 3 hurdles needed to jump BEFORE new blood could enter.

Call me a nut, call me a does not know what he is talking about person all day, but I will stand firm, this idea/proposal needs to be seriously looked at so you have a K.I.S.S. way for anyone to enter....

[mercguy]

Long range plan for J engines.........

this could (like any other class) present a problem. If looking to use a MAJOR outboard manufacturer's stock 15hp (or smaller) outboard motor for a period longer of, let's say, 5yrs, it will present another problem. With the dramatic changes in technology nowadays with outboards, a motor run of longer than 5yrs (without changes) is not happening. This is what needs to be addressed really, not so much that the Merc 15 is no longer available in the US. Sad to say folks, but if you want to be using a NEW motor (not one built just for racing), you are gonna have to re-evaluate the plan and think outside the box (could it be a 4 stroke?). A current idea, that would allow more Mercs to be used, is to allow the use of the older 95/96 and later models to be used also, that puts 1000's of available more motors to be used. Yes, the motors might have to be rebuilt or blueprinted (boy, I can hear the whining now), but that is just the way it is. Does it add more expense.......well yes, but things have dramatically change in todays modern era, thus EVERYTHING is more expensive..............

I kind of like the idea of someone (be it George or anyone else knowledgeable) rebuilding USED fishing powerheads or motors, to be resold by APBA. It would take alot of technical studying and info, but not out of the question.

what are the other alternatives or thoughts that keep the class more of inline in what is raced today, so not having to change the class completely?

[Fast Jack]

J motors

Daren , Mercury at one time had program to lease 9.9 tiller motors to summer camps and recreation programs. These motors were offered to dealers after 3 or 4 seasons to be sold as used . Ask your Rep if there is still a similar program. This could offer a chance to purchase "Blueprintable "motors and add the APBA kits. We now have 3 new J racers in region 1, my son being one of them.The class is growing and we are now working on a set of props. My son had run a Powermatic 12 Wizzard ( Gear shift motor) on a old 25 ss boat for 2 summers at the Antique meets to get some seat time. The speed was about 32 mph, But he wanted a" REAL RACE motor." I think the entry classes should prepair the racers for a move to a larger similar class , dont stick the kids in some different type of set up ( gear shift) than they will move up to. There have been a ton of OMC motors converted into RACE motors, and I think the trend will continue with the Merc. If I had the backing I would do something like that in the off season ( I fix boats for a living ,but here in Maine the water gets a little hard next month.) Used motors could be purchased and set up or owners could supply their own for conversion. The new parts are available from Merc for the powerheads,With George or somewith similar skills building long blocks the motors could be restored and set up with the kits form APBA. side note; Pat , dont let Danny and Ryan loose in the bar. Happy Thanksgiving , Shawn

[G Stillwill]

One of my ex motors came from a fishing camp in Canada which is a 1999 motor and now belongs to George Luce and was good enough to win AXSR at Moses lake. Had to refinish the cowl and put new decals on it but looked new when it was done.If APBA has someone new that needs a motor I will work with them to get them one or if someone is working with a new kid that needs to get on the water I can do that to. We dont want to loose any new drivers for lack of equipment. I never know how much I have to pay for a doner motor but have never paid more then a 1000.00 for one. The early style ign has to be looked at as it saves about 400.00 on converting a 1995 to 1998 motor over to the new style one. The last motor I bought was a 1997 Mariner and the cost was 570.00 including shipping. Its now a blueprinted converted J racer and in the hands of a J racer.

[sam]

Remember though, you are talking about tunnel boats, not at all comparable to runabouts and hydroplanes.

Are you saying you think that tunnels would be faster than hydros or some other issue? ... I brought the Mod C speeds up because you were saying that smaller hp full gearshift motors could not make good enough speed to be exciting. Hydros are consistently faster than tunnels with the same power ... a motor that would run a tunnel 80 could probably push a hydro close to 90. Many of the kilo records for OPC classes generally known as tunnel classes are actually held by hydros (if the rules allowed any type of boat). I would grant that it might require a hydro design that gave back some of that ultimate speed capability in order to make a good closed course boat with a fishing type motor, but we would still be talking about pretty exciting speed.

Getting back closer to the J subject of this thread, I believe it was 1968 when the first racing lower unit was allowed in J. Before that I think J used Mark 5 and Mark 6 fishing motors with their original lower units. There are still some racers around from that era - maybe they can tell us whether it was exciting enough for kids to stick with. I know George's sister Janice was one of the first JH drivers ... George, did you start out with a Mark 5 or 6?

[G Stillwill]

I was to old when I started to run J so I started out running AU which is now AR. I had hours of boat time playing with a KG-7H on a hydro so I was used to the speed before I raced. The old MK-5 in J was about the most boring thing to watch race back then with speeds around 28 mile an hour. There wasnt a JH class till my Dad and Hank Bowmen had it put in as a probationary class. They ran them on A hydros till it became a perment class then the J boats were built. Here are some pictures from the first year of JSH

[Fast Jack]

Great pictures

Great shots , Did the newspaper flip the negative for any special reason?

[STEVE FRENCH]

Just a couple random thoughts......perhaps a few will'n to commit to build a few motors with racer support/end of season recognition, would be worth think'n about.....George S and Gary P. already have contributed to the class....who else has time/abillity......maybe even a builders award from East/Central/West would be incentive.......
Perhaps a engine builder or two, would consider a Builder's School/class at National/Regional meet'ns with some kind of APBA certification?......yeh yeh maybe a pipe dream.....but worth think'n about....student fee would be a commitment to build a #? of units for sale per season?

"Now what do we do?"................

19P

[Morris85C]

I have 2 9.9 1996 1997 merc fishing moters that teem Allmairne will donate one of them to the family that wants to start boat raceing just call me at 209 629-0811.

[reed28n]

Ju

28 MPH I had a speedomter like that....I think my fist JSR with a 60J ran 28 MPH on a Price Craft never stopped hopping, matter of fact until Bobby Austin and his Dad came out with the Paper Bag all J's seemed to porpoise...they changed the J Class boat design on the East.

I think the J situation has two parts....

The Now..... which I agree would be best dealt through APBA with a contractor like George or Bass providing reconditioned power

The Future.... The J commission needs to have a plan for new motors

F-N-R gearcases are foreign to us....but with the AXS classes in the J category and some driver elidgibility guidelines implemeneted in AXS the J category may come up with a winning combo....


P.S. Ryan do a little homework on your racing history 36 Runabout was very popular and raced up into the 80's. When the Ships would pass by the open St Lawrence Seaway race course at Cardinal Ontario, the race committee would change the schedule to run the JSR or The 36 Runabout while the rollers from the Lakers passed......big water.......