20SSH Sidewinder Removal Proposal: Vote NO

[Mrs blueskyracer]

Isn't this that thread Matt? Pat's is the first post on this thread.

[daveracerdsh]

Personal Attacks

I have re-read every post on this thread....and I do not see any personal attacks by either KB or anybody else against the proponents of the 20SSH Sidewinder issue....I don't understand Dave Sullivan's attack against Pat Gleason..makes no sense to me. I consider Pat a good friend, and stuff like what Dave said really bothers me. Dave, we are also friends...maybe you should make amends dude. You might want to come back to racing someday..why burn bridges for no reason? I just don't get it. I have sent my ballot in, I voted to keep the Sidewinder in the 20 class. I was the person that made the motion to approve the motor for the class......and I would do it again. We all seem to be loosing sight of the fact that the sport we all love is going down the tubes....fast. How does removing the sidewinder from a class help matters? All it is going to do is make more people upset.,,,,,,you get the idea. Mike..(Allen) instead of taking all this energy and time on this thing, should we not instead work on promoting the sport we all love? How much time and energy has been spent on this issue? You may in the end get your wish...but be careful what you wish for.

[Big Don]

Dave, Kyle and I have conversed, You have no reason to be concerned. I won't delete my word either because then people won't be able to follow and will be left wondering. This is what happens communicating via typing, things don't come across they same.

You on the other hand seem to have a lot of anger when you type. See how things come across to others.

I took Kyle's post to say that we did what we did to mean that Mike and I only did this to protect our trailer box.

Dave, don't worry I have lots of time and energy to put in this sport and have done so in the 40 years of being around it. Well I guess Im assuming Ill be around a few more years but as my kids keep telling me unless i get serious about my heath that may not happen.

Here is what I don't get, have you not read mine, Mike's, and every other person reasons that are against this, the reasons why we think its good to remove...We have answered the reasons why.

Yes they are different than others. But how many topics does the SORC members all agree on.....Not many. We're never all going to agree on most topics.

[ryan_4z]

2. Stock Outboard:
A. Racing for the Stock Outboard classes shall be conducted under the supervision of a Stock Outboard Racing Commission (SORC). The decisions of the SORC shall be final in all matters pertaining to the administration and interpretation of the rules for these classes. This Commission shall serve as an appeal board for owners, drivers, Referees, Inspectors and Race Committee. The SORC shall consist of at least one member from each Region of APBA with at least 30 Stock Outboard members. One of the SORC’s duties shall be the enhancement of membership and the promotion of the growth of Stock Outboard racing. The SORC shall have the power to determine that specific motors may be eliminated or approved for use in other classes with restrictions. Any action under this paragraph shall be made at the Association’s annual meeting. Any rule in conflict with this paragraph shall be automatically repealed.

This is from our rule book. If we choose not to follow our own rules than take them out of the rule book. This entire process was reviewed by an independent attorney, APBA and the petition is out of order. If you dont wan the rule take it out. Dont leave it in as part of the way we manage our sport and ignore it.

Its not about the Sidewinder, its not about 20SSH. It is about APBA leadership chosing the rules they want to follow. This rule had to be approved by the BOD when it was printed, so they endorsed the category commission to be the steward of the class structure of Stock Outboard. Then decided to revoke that ability.

This point is very important and I think Scott has even understated his point. If I may add: The point of this rule is to create consistency in our rule making. This petition process is distinctly contrary to this consistency (which many believe to be the most important issue we face). Furthermore, it is not uncommon in Commission procedings for commissioners with a vested interest in a given issue to preclude themselves from voting on said issue. Now, while this may not typically extend to everyone who participates in a given class or owns equipment in that class, it can clearly be seen how giving the voting privilege to a group entirely invested in the class is quite contrary to the effort to maintain consistency in rule-making.

As an example of how this petition is disruptive to this process: At the national meeting the SORC voted to have a clearly defined "motor of choice" in each class. The 20SW was voted to be the "motor of choice" in the B class. No one, particularly none of the Sidewinder owners, has suggested that the 20SW be the "motor of choice" in the 20ssH class. If it is not the "motor of choice" the SORC will not allow it to become a dominant motor. They have procedures in place to deal with this issue mid-season if need be.

With these actions taken, the goal of this petition has already been achieved. The 20ssH class has been defined as a Yamato class (where the 20SW is allowed to run for a grandfathered period as this is currently the only nationally raced class that the 20SW is legal in-this is all that anyone has asked for). The "motor of choice" is not the 20 SW and therefore there is no conffussion on where to direct a new racer. Someone who is getting into 20ssH should buy a 302-they can also run C. Someone getting into B should buy a Sidewinder. They can get some seat time in 20ssH-until B and/or 25 can stand alone nationally.

Since the goal of this petition has been achieved, there is clearly nothing more to be done here. Voting to remove the 20SW too early, it seems, will only prove to cause further friction between a group that needs cohesion.

[Big Don]

The actual year escapes me, but about 10 years (SeaTec) ago several of our members fought for us members in court with their own money (thousands of dollars, may have even been 10’s of thousands) to make sure that through democratic procedures that we the members control APBA.

The bylaw that was used does just that. It lets the members have the power to decide how they want their organization run. Yes, the Commissions have the power to vote, run the category, etc… but the bylaw that was used, protects the members. Ultimately it’s the members that get to decide what they want.

What was done was well within our rules. Many may not like the way it was done, for their own reasons, but it was certainly within the members rights to do so.

Like I have said before, the members get to vote and however it turns out, at least it was in their hands.

We can all debate our side, poke holes in the opposition, challenge each other’s motives, call each other names, try and prove how the opposition views hurt the class, but the members get to decide how this is going to turn out.

Ryan, if the SORC had done what we did this year, (set direction, state our intentions) years ago this may not have happened. We have struggle for many years to set direction as a group, every time it tried it’s meet with opposition. If we don’t keep working on that we are all doomed. We have to be looking down the road or pretty soon we’ll be standing on the side of the road watching it pass us up.

We should all start a discussion on how we can add value to our sport as a start. We all hear it all the time that the value is just not there when we are selling it to a new prospect, time on water vs investment. I struggle at times with new racers (prospects), like I’m sure many of us do, we have it in our blood and no matter what happens we are going to adapt and be around. Problem is we are the exception. If I was new coming in I would be hard pressed to see the value and probably go towards a different venue. Yes I know other hobbies are more expensive and that boat racing is relatively inexpensive compared to others. As a prospect, If I‘m not on a budget and can afford it, I’m going a different direction, $$$$ Investment for 7 minutes of water time a day? Not much value there. As an example: how are we going to reduce the number of classes that we can all agree on so we can start running 3 heats for every class so we can add value to sell our sport. I know we can do it now but wouldn’t it be nice if that was every race, for every class and still be done racing at an early time? Problem is we let it grow to a point that with any change it’s going to cost or hurt some members. We are at such a fragile point that it has become unfixable to many. All of the clubs need every entry to make the finances work, we are afraid to change anything because it could put an end to our existence in our areas. I know our club is at that point. We can’t afford to keep losing money and if we lose just 5 entries we stand to lose another 400.00 a weekend. We can’t keep that up or well be broke, I know this is the same for many areas.

We need to lock ourselves in a room and come up with a plan, then go out and explain the reason for the change to our current members. Not force it down their throats without buy in. We will meet so much resistance that it won’t work. We need to help them understand the reasons, we need to help them understand that without change we are going to keep losing 30 members a year and we’ll be gone. I know many of us do this now but whatever we are doing is not working. I don’t have a good answer either because I know in our area we need every entry to make the weekend pencil. I’m at a point of not knowing what to do. But I do know this, I see the light at the end of the tunnel and it looks like it may burn out if we don’t change.

Please do not say then we should have kept the Sidewinder in the 20 class then. That’s not what I’m talking about.

[Merc1]

Good post Don

[Tim Weber]

Don,

I second the good post.

You mentioned more bang for the buck, meaning more water time,
I'm going back to the 60's when I was a kid. Every race day we had some testing before the race. It was usually from 9:30 to about noon. We can't do this anymore and get a race in with all the heats we run.

What do you do? We all know you can combine classes or eliminate classes.
Nobody is real excited about either. All you need to look at is the SW discussion.

The Pro boys are not all wrong. They have testing every morning and three heats of racing per class, four laps. To make this happen, they run one class per weekend. I like running both days myself but we may have to change.

Tim

[daveracerdsh]

Anger

Don..I understand how you may think I am angry about the current issue....In a sense I am in regards to the fact that the sport we all love is going down the tubes...and removing the Sidewinder from 20 is not going to help matters. Look at all the time that has been spent on the issue....I have not however made any personal attacks on anybody. I may not agree with you guys, but you can still buy me drinks at Moses Lake in the bar. Dave

[Dave M]

Then Change

Everyone talks about the need to reduce classes, shorten the day... put your money where your mouth is. If you can reduce classes and put on a 10 boats per class race, you can grow. it is exciting, and whether you want to recognize it or not, this rush sells more people than any amount talk. You can put people in boats (racing school) but without something exciting to close the deal with it is just a ride. All this jibber jabber about what engine is what class serves NO purpose other than to argue the same old story to the same old people.

It is proven it works.

Anyways, real change is needed. Not just parity. WAY to many baby steps being taken.

[ryan_4z]

Don, A democratic vote is not the only way to have a "member run" organization. Representation fits well within that dynamic.

All, Regardless of wether some rules were followed and others were broken, this petition undermines the authority of the SORC. It subverts all efforts for consistency in rule-making. This was an issue that needed addressing across the entire category, not just in one class. The SORC did this. A good example of members running their sport. This peitition is short-sighted in this regard. A few members have attempted to hi-jack the class from the category. The class belongs to the category and the drivers to the class-not the other way around.

Anyone who would vote to remove this Sidewinder should ask themselves wether they would vote to remove the Mercury from A. That motor is the third option, currently available and legal in the class to get driver's seat time (even thou it is already legal in 4 other classes). These issues are identical. If you feel differently about the Mercury than maybe your motivations aren't as pure as you think.

[Norm Schaub]

As everyone knows, I don't have a "dog" in this fight, I don't think anyone should tell people how to vote on an issue. Present the facts, and let the members decide for themselves.

[Herb Lanphear]

20ssh

If you could vote to add 75lbs to minimum weight, I would be willing to run either engine.

[Herb Lanphear]

20ssh

Gentlemen on a more serious note, try to decide what the upper management of Jesel might think about this post and it's ramifications on a venture they just entered into.I know what I would think !

[daveracerdsh]

20ssh

Herb...I don't think the original thread on this subject is still around...but I essentially made the point that if I were a business looking to get into stock outboard racing in the manuf. capacity or sponsorship or whatever I would have serious reservations. I will look around and see if I can find my original post on the subject. dave

[Charlie Pater]

Just for the record, I did review the APBA By-laws and Section 12.7. Rule Change Procedure provides for the members right to vote on rule changes. I have been involved in other organizations and By-laws generally provide an opportunity for the membership to organize and enact rule changes.

Charlie