Hydro Tuck-under

[14-H]

You're correct!

Brian: you've got it correct: it's unsafe to have that "max tuck" in any class; it's just that it's only occurring in the ASH class for the reasons I stated above. Oh, and FAH and AXSH! It's the 1-3/8" height restriction. And, to answer your other question, I favor keeping the 1-3/8" restriction and getting rid of the "max tuck." Ed.

[Raymond]

Do I understand this discussion correctly if I come to the conclusion that there was no tuck/kick limit in ASH back when this discussion was ongoing? Am I correct in interpreting the discussion to suggest that height was as it is today at 1 3/8”? Is the current day tuck/kick rule of ½” a result of those discussions? If so, looking back, is there any info to suggest it was the correct decision to make? Was there any discernable change in speed, handling, competitive parity and/or safety (i.e.…less crashes attributed to eliminating radical tucks)?

I don’t see any ruling with regards to fore and aft gear foot placement relative to the bottom aft corner of the boat that was touched on briefly by a few participants of this discussion. Does this suggest that pivot center is less a safety issue then excessive aft hull lift attributed to radical tucks at the maximum allowable prop height?

I have been combing the historical posts for all the info I can glean. Thanks for indulging me on this old topic as I progress through the new guy learning curve. I know you guys want someone competitive to race against and not just another boat in the field right?

Raymond

[ram95]

Everyone here, it would seem, is putting their personal experience out there regarding safe setups. I certainly respect each one. Afterall, 'they' were there, in their boat, and they experienced what they are presenting to the rest of us.

My observation is just this: Not all the boats were the same, not all drivers weighed the same.

Therefore, we are dealing with apples and oranges - too many differences/varibles, to be able to base any conclusions upon. Except one - Testing.,

I would submit that virtually no one, who found their boat completely unpredictable at speed, would attempt to run that boat/set-up in competition. However, I would suggest that: Anyone who didn't do adequate TESTING of their freaking morphedite piece of crap would attempt such stupidity.

Friends... we can not write rules for these folks. And friends, these folks reside amongst us.

Until the day comes where we will all drive boats built to the exact same dimension, probably by the same builder (hohummmm), the rules need to get the heck out of propshaft heights. Period! The racer is the arbiter of her/his own safety in this instance.... J category excepted.

Alex

[csh2z]

At the 2005 National meeting we created the first tuck rule in response to concerns of unusual control issues with regard to this extreme setup. We spoke to numerous well respected veteran drivers that tried the setup, and to a man, we were told how dangerous this was. We knew that boats could and were built specifically to run the setup relatively safely with an experienced driver, but our concern was that people trying that setup on boats not designed for it, would put themselves in serious peril, just trying to stay competitive. Bear in mind, the reason the A class is so restrictive in the first place is that it is our entry- level class in Stock Outboard. In fact the 1 3/8" transom height was originally mandated by OMC as a condition of their proposal to offer that motor for the A class. But I digress.
We wrote a rule that we thought would address the problem and monitored the results throughout the 2005 season. There was definite improvement but the rule still needed refinement. At the next national meeting we readdressed the issue and came up with the rule we have today. At the same time we had to also design the inspection tool, thanks to Ed Runne for his work on that. We monitored the results during the 2006 season and determined that all the effort was worth it, in spite of all the flak we took for 2 years, the problem seemed to be solved. Today, I think we can all agree, as the results are indesputable, the A class is much safer than it was 4 years ago.

[oldracer]

Tucking?

I believe I read where Gerry Waldman was a great tucker in his time. Does anyone remember seeing his stockers and how they were set up? The remarks were when he was running the PRO circuit. My
Ye Olde Desert Geezer Al

[wildchildl4]

hydro tuck under

setting up your raceboat shouldn't have a rule,that's part of racing.that's y it's called racing

[Raymond]

Thanks John.

Raymond

[Racerkyle20]

Funny this is being brought up again by some racers. I was just getting out of the A class, too fat LOL, when the rule went into place. The tuck for me was how I raced A for almost 4 years. Those setups were very fast, but at the same time we had a 'smooth' water setup and a 'rough' water setup. The smooth water setup was very extreme, but fast. In rough water it was hard to control. I had a lot of fun years with those setups and I was always a believer in those setups. But on the otherside I can see where the safety committies would have an issue with it. Safety is #1 in my book, especially in a beginner class, as John Runne put it and I can't blame them for putting this rule in place. 4 years later, seems like they did the right thing...

[ricochet112]

Funny this is being brought up again by some racers. I was just getting out of the A class, too fat LOL, when the rule went into place. The tuck for me was how I raced A for almost 4 years. Those setups were very fast, but at the same time we had a 'smooth' water setup and a 'rough' water setup. The smooth water setup was very extreme, but fast. In rough water it was hard to control. I had a lot of fun years with those setups and I was always a believer in those setups. But on the otherside I can see where the safety committies would have an issue with it. Safety is #1 in my book, especially in a beginner class, as John Runne put it and I can't blame them for putting this rule in place. 4 years later, seems like they did the right thing...

That really explains a lot!

[Flint54]

Seems to me, (non-racer here so you can tell me whatever) that this issue has too many variables to actually be something that a rule would be fair to everyone who races the class.

1) There are different makes of boats!
2) Each boat is a rule to itself with weight, air traps, rocker, offset, fin placement and a gamut of others!
3) How many different props are being used?
4) Weight of the driver and where they position themselves!
5) What are the weather conditions?
6) Where is the boat/driver in the pack?
7) What engine are they using?
8) How high above the transom is the top of the motor to change CG?
9) How much weight is behind the transom due to various engine makes?
10) Where is the CG of the boat when in Full Racing Condition?

Unless the majority of the items are not a variable Rules make the field more UN-EQUAL and in so doing they make it easier for someone with deep pockets able to dominate! This I have seen in many of the Sports that I have Loved. That is why NASCAR is where it is this day and age, more and more Rules make it easier for $$$$ to take over!!!

My two Cents from the Sidelines and Inside the Turns!! Bob K. ????

[ricochet112]

Seems to me, (non-racer here so you can tell me whatever) that this issue has too many variables to actually be something that a rule would be fair to everyone who races the class.

1) There are different makes of boats!
2) Each boat is a rule to itself with weight, air traps, rocker, offset, fin placement and a gamut of others!
3) How many different props are being used?
4) Weight of the driver and where they position themselves!
5) What are the weather conditions?
6) Where is the boat/driver in the pack?
7) What engine are they using?
8) How high above the transom is the top of the motor to change CG?
9) How much weight is behind the transom due to various engine makes?
10) Where is the CG of the boat when in Full Racing Condition?

Unless the majority of the items are not a variable Rules make the field more UN-EQUAL and in so doing they make it easier for someone with deep pockets able to dominate! This I have seen in many of the Sports that I have Loved. That is why NASCAR is where it is this day and age, more and more Rules make it easier for $$$$ to take over!!!

My two Cents from the Sidelines and Inside the Turns!! Bob K. ????

Exactly! Until you tried to drive one, you will never understand.

There was little to no room for error huh Kyle

Hey, where'd spell check go!!?? I reely nede spel chek

[Flint54]

Thanks Sam! Appreciate the info.

[PopPop]

I believe I read where Gerry Waldman was a great tucker in his time. Does anyone remember seeing his stockers and how they were set up? The remarks were when he was running the PRO circuit. My
Ye Olde Desert Geezer Al

I had a long discussion with Gerry, about his theories on tuck and prop size/pitch, at Nick Marchetti's, years ago. Yes, he believed in tucking under but strongly emphasized that you be sure you still had control. We used it very successfully in 25SSH. It was on the "edge" but Philip never lost control because we tested and tested. Somewhere I have a photo of Gerry in the Knoxville traps, at over 100MPH, with a very obvious tuck that would blow your mind. I am trying to locate that photo.

[csh2z]

The rule works very well. The class is safer than before.
The playing field is level for all.(as much as possible)
Money is always a factor.
Nobody dominates.

[1977 ASH]

Very interesting discussion and a bit of deju vu all over again. When I raced ASH in the old Merc KG-4 days, there were no set up restrictions at all. We had very similar issues starting to arise when I stopped racing in the late 70’s that you guys have already mentioned in this thread. And the jump from JSH who were running in the high 30’s mph range to the next class up of ASH - where you had to be going almost 60mph as well as being the biggest class in stock outboard racing - was a pretty tough transition. In large part those issues led to imposition of height restriction rules.

Some motors are always going to be better than others in stocks – that is just a fact. In my day, when you had a bit less horsepower, you could try to compensate by shimming it up a bit and see if the motor with a bit less HP would pull the prop. But it was tricky and not necessarily as stable of course when jacked up. And as many folks have noted, when others on the beach saw a jacked-up set up going past them on the outside, they thought that alone was the answer. Of course, it was simply one visible part of learning, understanding and figuring out the whole set up - and it often was not as stable unless you did it all right – lower unit condition, transom angle, after-plane length, prop rake, etc.. Now with height restrictions, there is no such option – one has to look in other directions. A racer’s job is always going to be one of trying to figure out any way you can to stay within the rules and go faster – it’s always going to be a challenge to balance speed and innovation with safety. And the other factor is that it’s really hard to dictate and legislate common sense to people – some folks have it, some do not have it and never will.

Mark