Grass Lake ASH Turn 1: You Make the Call

[mercguy]

Fyi

no one in the pits of inspection area has or had a good enough view to make any call in the first turn..........too far away and too big a cluster "f".......thats why we have turn judges...........but, the calls were not consistant.........

[John Schubert]

Matt D

It looks to me that there was another orange helmet driver outside of Matt & ahead of the boat with the yellow helmet driver, thus there couldn't be an infraction against him by Matt who according to the pictures had the inside lane all the way.

[daveracerdsh]

Chop

After watching the video more times then I can count and looking at the pics...sure looks like Colin was hacked. Why did the turn judge reverse call? I was in inspection area getting ready to run my second heat of DSH and saw some really unhappy people there...and my teamate Olivia in tears.

[racer3j]

If someone could explain how you can be chopped by the inside boat it would be greatly appreciated.

[dt 01]

chop

Didn't i hear about this last year in CSH and like 4 boats were wrecked....from a reg. 10 driver...get some good turn judges and the problem would go away!! who wants to go to NAT. and get DQ but if you know they will not make a call then do it or have it happend to you!!

[kampkurz]

Yea. It's a bummer to rely on volunteers trying to do good. Just can't trust em'.

[dt 01]

yep.. that's a great point they are just doing there best !! and most of them don't want all the BS if they do make a call....so maybe pay someone to do it at all the big NAT. race's that people pay thousands of dollars to race!! or go back to my first post i am not putting blame on the judges i am saying get trained turn judges for the nationals....but i know that will never happend so guess i don't have a good answer.....

[sax]

Until the funds become available for the knee jockey divisions to be able to afford at least (3) paid turn judges/turn along with video tape coverage in each turn from beginning to end, there are going to be problems such as these that arise. The only thing that I have seen that was close to fool-proof is the chopper coverage of the unlimited's and off-shore boats and I kinda doubt that might be in the budget too.

We are an amateur sport that has to come to the realization that we are that and nothing more ! I'm not cutting anyone down here.......it is still the most fun I ever had in the the fifty odd years I was involved in it and wishing that I could still do more of it.

[bill van steenwyk]

Several years ago (probably 10+)at the PRO Nationals there was some controversy about the ability of turn judges and their capability to see from their single vantage point, water level in a boat and in the middle of the turn.

The next several years we used Pontoon boats with upper decks built on them so as to place the judges approximately 10-12 feet above the race course water level and it was a big help. Also extra judges were placed in strategic vantage points on the bank even with the first turn pin so they could assist the judges on the water. Perhaps something like this could be used at the Stock races to help if it is not done already.


One thing you want to remember about being a turn judge OR any other official at a Boat Race, Nationals or not. These folks are all volunteers, by and large, and donate their time sitting in the hot sun, for no pay, and very little thanks other than by the race organizers, and sometimes verbal and rarely (but it has happened more times than you think) physical altercation about calls that they made, or not.

Some years ago in the PRO Category we changed our rule to say if a driver felt he was wronged, he had to file a protest before the turn judge was even consulted, i.e. no calls made unless someone *****ed that they were cut off. That faded away after several years for much the same reason it was voted in, because someone griped and moaned they were wronged with the way it was being done at the time someone got their nose out of joint.

Yes, turn judges, (and other officials) sometimes make mistakes. They are human, but a lot of errors and mistakes can be eliminated by the Referee meeting with the turn judges and asking questions regards just what to they think warrants a call for violation, in other words do they understand the rule for the category. Then if they do not, corrections can be made at that time to possibly eliminate problems later on. We even went to the length of two judges in the turn in separate boats for two perspectives, and you would be surprised just how many times one person would say there was a violation and the other there was not, just because they looked at the action from different locations.

One thing that has never ceased to amaze me about turn violations, is the drivers that seem to be the most successful (most wins, Championships, etc.,) are the loudest in crying foul when they think someone cut them off. They just can't seem to realize that maybe just because they win a lot, they are wrong sometimes and everyone else is not the dummy they think they are and are always getting in their way.

In my 40+ years of helping at races, turn judging included, the lousiest attitudes I have ever seen are some of the ones doing the most winning. You would think they would be better sports, but a lot of them are just whiners and poor losers, only gracious when they win and lots of excuses when they don't, and I speak from personal experience. I have lost much respect for several of this type over the years from just that type of action. EVERYONE of the racers I have known over the years that have volunteered for these type jobs were honest individuals and would not ever throw someone out for no reason. Mistakes maybe, but no other reason, and humans sometimes do make mistakes. The only thing worse is one of their "friends" on the bank telling them "No you didn't do it" and adding fuel to the fire.

It takes all the competitors that finish behind the winner and all the folks that volunteer their time doing the hot, thankless jobs that enable the few like these idiots to have their moment of glory, and they seem to forget that a lot of the time. Sometimes it pays to just be humble and chalk it up to experience as there is always the next race.

End of rant!

[ryan209]

ys every1 crying for racing is racing **** happens deal with it *** on now its not like theres a million dollars on the line let it go an congrats its bout time an old timer sorry matt wins give it to the man he drove his ass off an won *** on guys

[reed28n]

Different points of view

A. OVERLAP— SO and MO classes. When there is less than one boat length of open water between a leading boat and a following boat, an overlap is established. In a position of overlap, the following rules shall apply:
1) The front boat shall not alter its course across or into the established path of the rear boat.
2) The outside boat must give the inside boat room to clear any course marker.

From the beach or from the turn boat it is difficult for two people to see this violation the same and interpret the rule the same.

Look at all the different opinions from on this thread from the photos and the videos.

Now for the goood part. In my opinion the lead boat was Matt and he established his course. Yellow helmet dude tried to make an awesome move and ran out of room. He started out 4 or 5 lanes and tried to get to the inside but had to cross Matt's wake to do it.

The rules do not accomodate a failed attempted.

The other boat to Matt's outside was driving him into to the buoy or Matt was right hand wheeling it and they got into each other...not sure you could make that call from any angle for a driver to be at fault. Judging from the damage on the 32 outside boat was slightly behind and had to follow the lead boat.

Alot of action in a few feet for sure.

[Raymond]

Ok ok as soon as we get the content downloaded from the 20X optical zoom camera we had on the beach just to the north side of the boat ramp, we will see if we can settle this once and for all. If my minds eye is correct, the action I saw, which was shared with others on site using rewind (albeit through the view finder) at the momemt of the event...there was more than a boat lenght from the leader and the claimer.

[John Schubert]

Inside boat

If someone could explain how you can be chopped by the inside boat it would be greatly appreciated.

Well said Dylan!

[John Schubert]

Shopping

A. OVERLAP— SO and MO classes. When there is less than one boat length of open water between a leading boat and a following boat, an overlap is established. In a position of overlap, the following rules shall apply:
1) The front boat shall not alter its course across or into the established path of the rear boat.
2) The outside boat must give the inside boat room to clear any course marker.

From the beach or from the turn boat it is difficult for two people to see this violation the same and interpret the rule the same.

Look at all the different opinions from on this thread from the photos and the videos.

Now for the goood part. In my opinion the lead boat was Matt and he established his course. Yellow helmet dude tried to make an awesome move and ran out of room. He started out 4 or 5 lanes and tried to get to the inside but had to cross Matt's wake to do it.

The rules do not accomodate a failed attempted.

The other boat to Matt's outside was driving him into to the buoy or Matt was right hand wheeling it and they got into each other...not sure you could make that call from any angle for a driver to be at fault. Judging from the damage on the 32 outside boat was slightly behind and had to follow the lead boat.

Alot of action in a few feet for sure.

That is what I saw as well in the pictures. Matt was contending with a boat to his outside so he couldn't be bearing away, and since he had the inside lane & ahead of the yellow helmet driver, and making his turn as tight as he could because he was being pinched by the guy to his right, he couldn't possibly chop anyone. As Scott posted, there was sufficient open water so that it was his turn according to the rules.

[Waterson Racing Team]

From the pictures it appears Matt clearly has the inside lane and is ahead of the collision.

My question is,...who has the damage to the right front of their boat? When the red and white boat came back in the motor was askew on the transom. Looking at it from behind, the propshaft was at about a 4:30-5:00 position and the top of the motor was at about a 10:30-11:00 position. This could explain why his rooster tail suddenly changed configuration. It "appears" that the prop has "blown out" as you can see in the pictures. This may be why it appears that he took a hard left to the inside of the pin.