SO Yamato Rule Changes

[reed28n]

Easier Path

Some 102's are faster than some 302's big deal. Don't change CSH or CSR.

Same logic Ed, the intro of the Yamato's and Hot Rods in the 25 Class to help the merc. Make the newer motor win.. Yeah 302's!!!

[bill boyes]

I agree with you. Ed has a problem with OSY being scheduled at Stock/ Mod races. He needs to get over the deal at the Winter Nationals and move on. We Region Chairs will insure that our Clubs can run the APBA Categories that they what to run. It is not up to a Category Chairperson. The clubs in the Regions will decide what is best for them . End of story.!!!!!

[14-H]

Some 102's are faster than some 302's big deal. Don't change CSH or CSR.

Same logic Ed, the intro of the Yamato's and Hot Rods in the 25 Class to help the merc. Make the newer motor win.. Yeah 302's!!!

Not the same logic. There's no need for two classes to run CSR. That move was only to allow the Hot Rods and Mercs to continue to be able to race.

[14-H]

I agree with you. Ed has a problem with OSY being scheduled at Stock/ Mod races. He needs to get over the deal at the Winter Nationals and move on. We Region Chairs will insure that our Clubs can run the APBA Categories that they what to run. It is not up to a Category Chairperson. The clubs in the Regions will decide what is best for them . End of story.!!!!!

Bill: Do you not see that the Pro Commission has retained this decision for itself with its "special" list of referees and inspectors? It's not up to the Region Chairman whether OSY-400 is run at a Stock or Mod race; it's up to the Pro Commission. Unless you have their "special" officials on site, you will not run their class.

If I, as the SO Chairman, refuse to sign a sanction because OSY-400 is on the schedule, I'm not doing anything differently than the Pro Commission is doing.

This didn't begin at the Winternationals. It just came to a head there. Ed.

[reed28n]

Future

For the future of Our Stock category we cannot continue to make changes from season to season. We need to have a plan to go forward. The plan may include dropping the 102 eventually but if we have a well mapped plan to do it in 3 or 4 years than it wouldn't be as big a shock to the current drivers. They would prepare for the future. The same goes for a new motor strategy to include the Side Winder or the Tohatsu or the next new motor. It is not enough to try to put new motors in existing classes. We need to map a plan to move our sport toward that new equipment and make sure that it is available. Handicapping is the wrong path unless all the motors are new and currently in stock some where.

We all want to race for years to come. We cannot attract anyone to race against by perpetuating hard to get motors and re writing the rule book each year to keep parts alive for them, ie new port dimensions, new carb fronts, new ignitions.... we are just delaying the inevitable collapse of the class.

We need to consolidate our driver pool wether it be Stock on its own at local races or stock and mod working together to reduce the number of three and four boat classes. It will be a tough task to get members to move away from a particular motor they are passionate about, but with a clear direction we would all realize the long term benefit by having new drivers to race against in the future. Maybe we should change the Stock category to the IN STOCK category, if the motors and parts aren't in a manufacturer's inventory it isn't a stock class.

Scott

[14-H]

***Handicapping is the wrong path unless all the motors are new and currently in stock some where.

***
Scott

Scott: I think you are dead wrong about this. Look at AXS. In that class, both the new Merc and the old, out-of-date OMC are both competitive. Additionally, both provide an avenue to run the class. Some people like new stuff, others like to look for older stuff that they can make run fast.

Besides, if you obsolete old stuff, you'll inevitably chase some racers away. Not all of them will buy the new stuff. The key is to find the balance between the old and the new. The problem is that the SORC has a very, very bad record of creating parity between any two engines.

AXS is NOT a SO success; it is an APBA success. This doesn't mean that SO can't follow it, if SO chooses to. Ed.

[bill van steenwyk]

what it's really all about

It doesn't take much thought to see what this is all about, the comments by "Eddie the Chairman" not withstanding. He says that you can't run OSY 400 at a stock race without the PRO Commissions blessing and officials. I suppose it is true that you can't have a RECORD race without PRO approved officials, and as has been stated in an earlier post, that is what got Eddie in hot water at the Winternationals by signing off on a record that there was no PRO inspector there for. Then he makes himself out to be a good guy by putting up 25% of the protest fee to help protest the only decision the PRO Commission could make in this case and still uphold their own rule book. The protest is upheld, making the PRO Commission look like a bunch of scrooges, Eddie gets his protest money back, and comes out smelling like a bunch of roses, when it is his fault the whole mess started anyway. Did anyone ever stop to think that he didn't do doodly squat about that mess he created until his feet were held to the fire on this website. If he really wanted to do the "right thing" he should have put up the whole protest fee. I've been wondering just how he was going to handle this deal ever since he brought up last spring that maybe OSY didn't belong in PRO. Well we don't have to wonder anymore. Maybe the words Hearn and duplicity should be interchangable.

[reed28n]

hot air

Guys guys... put down your mouse and step away from your computer... this is the wrong forum for personal attacks on Ed or anyone....

We all realize how passionate everyone is about our sport and there are many opinions. Express your opinion I'll express mine.

It is my opinion that while I don't agree with Ed's position, I agree that we need to try to move forward to improve our sport, heck, even grow our sport. Adding classes in APBA across the board is not the path to healthy growth it is a temporary fix and will dilute our driver pool. AXS is I admit a success. I did not agree with it at the time but I have seen it grow and give young drivers a step to A, the only issue in the East is we scavenged our a class. Drivers that would have normally run A now running AXS give us two small class at our races rather than one. On the same front the 25SSR class has diluted the CSR class.

To Ed's point that we will lose drivers... we will lose some existing motor owners if their existing motor is dropped. We will lose far fewer if we phase out motors correctly and it will take a lot of thought and planning. The upside of new equipment and the potential to improve for the long run is the point you are missing.

One idea...Stock motors should evolve into mod motors and be sustained there. Writing the rules between the two categories insures that current motor owners have a place to run their equipment before it is phased out. I think that we have a high percentage of racers that want to race in full fields and compete at a very high level that racers will spend resources on new equipment to compete rather than machine shop jobs to make old equipment fatser. Ed I agree with you on the phasing in the right mix of new and old it just needs to be mapped out so everyone knows what will happen over the course of the next few years.

Oh and don't mess with CSH and CSR... those are APBA successes too......

[dholt]

Couple points now that some more posts have been added.

More than one person has mentioned here that they CAN run their 302 at
1/2". Some have even stated they can go higher.

So if one person can do it...then so can all of the 302 owners. Just gotta work at it. Change boats, change props...change something. That's the nature of racing. If you don't adapt, you get passed. It's true in every class.

Just like the past couple years, all those 25SSR Merc drivers moaning they had no chance at competing with the Yamatos. Sorry...you have no stance. A 25xs won the Nationals in 2006 against the best Yamatos in the country. You have no one to blame for not running fast but yourselves.

Secondly, this idea of "scaring" people away if we get rid of the soon to be antique motors prevents us from making smart, tough decisions. Yeah...where would SO be if the SORC hadn't had the guts and intelligence to get rid of the Merc KG4 and Mk. 15 in 'A' class in the mid 80's? How would that parity committee have fared? How much infighting and controversy would have occured trying to make the Merc and OMC equal? Total clusterF...that's what it would have been. Same with the 30H and 55H in 'C' and 'D'.

Sure, some people quit. So be it. But more new people were gained and the class has been a huge success. Examine history. Look at what has worked and what hasn't.

And Scott Reed is right no the money. The AX classes have diluted the 'A' classes so much that ASR is dying!!! Look at your local races. Look at the Nationals. This year, ASR is down to 64 boats. Every year gets lower. CSR is down to 83...it's lowest total in 10 years. We're robbing Peter to pay Paul with this vast array of classes using the same engines.

[csh2z]

Scott / Dana

Thank you both for speaking up. Well said. John 2-Z

[Matt Dagostino]

Think About it............................

[QUOTE=dholt] The AX classes have diluted the 'A' classes so much that ASR is dying!!! Look at your local races.


Ask yourself why is the AXSH/AXSR class(s) gaining so much popularity and the current ASH/ASR classes declining?? Could it be because our braintrusts on the commission in recent years refused to 'slow down' the current "A" class to a speed that our youngsters could handle?? My belief is that ASH/ASR is a stepping-stone to larger classes and it should be designed to accomadate our 'youth' as a transition class. Unfortunatly the OMC Motor over the years has climed in speed and acceleration to the point where it is a tough place for kids out of J Hydro and runabout to feel comfortable. Should the commission have restricted the OMC motor (.675 plate) perhaps ASH/ASR would have been a safer place for the kids to move to!! It is obvious by the tremendous growth in the AX classes that kids,men,women of all ages like this speed weight, etc.

Just a thought...............


Proud J-Dad.

[sponsonhead]

Hijacking Alert!

Funny.....I thought the name of this thread was YAMATO Rule Changes....

R-19

[propnuts]

Some thoughts

First to Matt's post about the success of AXS. He says A should be a stepping stone class, NEVER has been. It's always been a class for lightweight veterans as well as kids growing up. The success in AXS IS due to the the fact that it IS seen as a stepping stone for kids that don't want to compete with the older crowd, where success is harder to come by. The speeds are only a couple MPH different, it's the competition that changes. A lot of parents aren't willing ot put their kids out with Mike Kelly, Gary Lewis, Dave Bennett and all the other hard drivers out there. I can understand that, when you go to run A, you're a big boy (or girl) now. No need to change A to accomodate kids, that's what the J classes are for. Tony

[propnuts]

Engine matching

Sorry for the previous jacking of thread (to be fair I didn't start it Ed says you can point to AXS as a success that SO should try to match. I say that SO has done a pretty decent job already in 20SS (Y80 and later Y's) 25SSR (Merc and Y), CSH and CSR (Y102 and 302). With a little tweaking DSH could fall into that same catagory. Give yourselves a little credit guys, the sky really isn't falling (all that fast) Tony

[14-H]

CSH Tweaking

Tony is right: the reference to AXS was only an analogy. I don't agree with outlawing any engines. In 1986 it made sense because racing motors were sitting on pallets waiting to be purchased. That's not true anymore.

I do believe, however, that it is the job of the SORC for the good of the category to ensure that people who want to buy engines because they want to win are not being told "don't buy one of the new ones, you have to look for one of those obsolete ones to win." That is the current perception in CSH and you guys are sticking your heads in the sand if you deny this.

The 102 will not die a natural death. We are already approving after-market parts for this engine and I have no problem with that. But there have to be actions taken to ensure that the 302 and the 102 can BOTH win. That way, the new guy will have no hesitation in buying the new engine when it comes time to try to win.

Patrick: I'm still laughing about the alert. Ed.