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Possible time based elims idea

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  • #16

    Re: Possible time based elims idea

    I am an old fashioned boat racer who values nailing the start over almost anything. What occurs to me here is that on a long course someone could conceivably lay back on the start, run the smoother water on the outside, and turn faster lap times than the guys fighting the rough water on the inside. They could advance without really earning the spot.

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    • #17

      Re: Possible time based elims idea

      I love nailing starts to. when I say a time based elims I'm talking about overall time, not lap times

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      • #18

        Re: Possible time based elims idea

        Logan, a possible solution to the scenario of not having two heats of time. Two heats could be run, but only your fastest heat would count toward qualifying. In essence, you would get a throw away score like so many other judged and timed sports do and keep only your best score (heat time) for qualifying.

        A format like that would take luck further out of the equation as one bad heat would not kill someone's chances to advance if they are one of the top competitors. As far as non championship races, elimination heats are usually only one heat anyway, so they could be done by time easily.
        Last edited by modracer7b; 09-20-2018, 10:25 PM.

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        • #19

          Re: Possible time based elims idea

          This is an excellent idea, my dad asked me the same question when I told him the idea and I was stumped, thank you for figuring out a solution to this problem

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          • #20

            Re: Possible time based elims idea

            Overall heat times are already used for total point tie breakers. Fact of the matter remains at some point you have to step up and beat the “hotdogs” whether it be in prelims or finals. A lot of variables between heats, water conditions, gun jumpers, etc. I’m not in favor of a timed format but I certainly think the current setup is stale. Maybe you should get to pick your heat according to your points standing? Maybe we should look at a supercross style format? I’m sure there are a lot of ideas out there. Lets hear them.

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            • #21

              Re: Possible time based elims idea

              Remix the heats based on time for the second heat. Fastest and third fastest goes to elim2a and second fastest and 4th fastest goes to elim2b etc. Then the top 6 racers after one heat are not racing in same heat. You jump the gun you can still win second heat and advance you would just get zero time in first heat.

              Time only based racing takes a lot out of racing. I am in second place and I just need to keep X driver behind me. No incentive to think on the water just fastest time. In two words less drama. Let's face it the fastest boat should not always win. The 13th fastest boat would stop coming to races.

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              • #22

                Re: Possible time based elims idea

                Logan, I love that you are stepping up and putting your ideas out there. We are the future of boat racing and the sooner we all get involved the better prepared we will be when it comes our time to take over and make big time decisions and influence the future of the sport. I have always said to win the nationals you have to have a good rig and a lot of luck to go along with it. I see pros and cons to this idea, but I think it would be a good idea to try it out. Don't let the idea live its entire life on the internet and die here on hydroracer, reach out to commissioners and have them take this to the national meeting to discuss. you could even talk with a club like TRORA or MHRA and see if they would be willing to give this a try if and when they have elimination heats at a weekend race. keep thinking of great ideas!
                Ryan Brewster 57-S

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                • #23

                  Re: Possible time based elims idea

                  This is an interesting thought process. To evaluate the ideas we need to set the goal first. Is the goal; fastest boat should win, best driver should win, hardest driver should win, most deserving driver should win, best starter should win, or what? Each could lead to a different solution. Fastest boat would suggest we use time trials, one boat at a time. Hardest driver could leave some carnage on the race course. Most deserving could take into account all kinds of things like hardships getting to the race. Best starter could be determined by the video and there would be no need to race. The best driver would be subjective and become a popularity contest.

                  As it is now in order to win you need a fast boat, a good start, a good lane choice, a wise driver, a safe legal driver and good luck. Good luck, for example, comes to play when everything is going your way and the heat doesn’t get stopped before you finish. The current system takes a little of everything to win or place high in the results. This doesn’t mean we don’t try to make it better, but we should do it thoughtfully. For example, I think we should make racing safer so winning does not come at the expense of those left behind.
                  John Adams
                  Last edited by GrandpaRacer; 09-21-2018, 07:38 AM.



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                  • #24

                    Re: Possible time based elims idea

                    Joe has it right, 3 heats and you solve the issue. I know, you’re adding heats to a long day to begin with. However, think it this way if you had say 15 classes to run, instead of running separate program each day, split the classes into one two day classes. Okay so you say we have to run separate each day to make the financial side work. Why??? If you are going to get three heats instead 4, and I’’ve been to races where the last three or four classes sometimes didn’t get there Sunday heats because of a water curfew or other issues it hurts the efforts

                    So if you were paying 35-50 for each class each day, what does 30-40 per class. For some, race Saturday and done, time to help the Opposite Day. Saturday for these 8 classes 7 Sunday then next race you swap and 7 Sat 8 Sun. That way you give people with one class a chance to make race they may not have made, but also give multiple class drivers maybe a break on engine swaps.


                    So instead of running 30 to 40 heats a day, you’d run 21-24 heats.
                    It works.
                    Last edited by RLR; 09-21-2018, 02:44 PM.



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                    • #25

                      Re: Possible time based elims idea

                      What about this:

                      Let's assume we leave the elim configuration the way it is, but instead of randomly assembling the elims based on registration order (or however it is done), put top drivers in the first elim and on down the line. Base it on class points or the average of the racer's finish positions in the class over the last X number of races.

                      For example: you have 16 boats show up for a race. The first elim is the top 8 boats of those there, the second elim is the rest. It ensures, theoretically, that every boat has at least one other boat in the elim they are competitive with. Unfortunately it does not eliminate the issue of a boat making the finals that would have been beaten if racing against the other boats, but... it does mean those who make it did so by beating other boats that are more closely matched to theirs (more skill and work vs more luck). On the other side of the coin, it also means the top drivers are consistently racing the other top drivers, not getting the "lucky draw" and then just stomping everyone else in the heat. The truth is, the way they are done now, you really almost have to come in last or second to last to miss a final anyway.

                      Since the total number of boats for any given class varies at each race, the same drivers won't always be the "slowest" guy for his/her elim. You can also randomly vary the number of boats in each elim if there are an odd number of boats. That will also create a variance to keep any one or two boats from consistently being bumped in their heat.

                      To me, the bottom line is simply that the top boats are going to be the top boats most of the time, no matter how you run the elims. The rest of us most likely aren't in the running for any points championships or any sort of threat to a top runner's crown. At least this way, those of us in the middle or the back get a chance to run in the final.

                      If we steep this down to simply only the best boats are consistently making the finals, you're short changing the drivers who aren't, or can't be that competitive. In the end, the top guys remain top guys and those of us in the middle or the back have, at least, a few that we can actually race against and work to surpass.

                      If this were a high dollar affair where we were racing for real $$$, then all bets are off, but it's not. We always talk about how to get people into the sport and how to keep them coming back. Let's make it so that a racer can go to a race and have a reasonable expectation of having a chance to make the final. Heck, I run my stock boat in a mod class simply to get a little more driving in on a weekend after spending 5 or more hours driving too a race site in many circumstances. It would not be encouraging to do that only to get one elim race in for a class every time.

                      Just a thought.
                      Last edited by Ram4x4; 09-21-2018, 04:35 PM.
                      Dane Lance
                      700-P
                      CSH/500Mod

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                      • #26

                        Re: Possible time based elims idea

                        Logan, now you need to request the scoring and timing sheets from your classes for the last few races at least. Do the math on the current points and time system vs a time only system for same heats. Let's hear what the actual numbers are, and how final heat entries would've changed. I have no idea what to expect from your results, but my guess would be in most cases the same boats would end up in finals.

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                        • #27

                          Re: Possible time based elims idea

                          I want to take the luck out of racing, racing is supposed to be about racers driving hard and earning there spot in the final.
                          So when conditions change between heats, then hard racing is crap because luck said that the water is slower the second time around? I think your idea in theory has merit, but I do not think it is a good idea. The way we do it now rewards racing against the people on that particular course at that particular time. It is by luck of the draw. If we seed it by times, we would lose the people that just plain can’t compete. If we seed things by times, you might lose people like me. I am too fat to be truly competitive in a cubic dollars sense in CSH, so I do not try exceedingly hard. However, I think most will argue that I am competitive with slower stuff. If you want to say that lousy racers deserve a higher spot than I do in the finals because they spend more money with less time distractions, than I agree with you. But is that what you want? Do you want to win because it is easier? You mention earning your spot in the final. I volunteer to be placed with you in every elim next year. I know I am slower, but I intend to drive hard and earn my spot racing you directly.

                          Now that I have said that Logan, I think your idea is wonderful. We have been doing things the same way for so long that we generally cannot see our way out of our own rear ends. I think we all need to foster this and other new ideas and push for more out of our new generation. (I just don’t happen to think this particular one is the best approach.) You young men and women have seen my parents’ generation and my generation beat our heads into the wall trying to capture the magic left over our grandparents. PLEASE keep suggesting new ideas. We cannot stay the same and expect to stop shrinking. We have to make it our passion to push for the evolution and growth of this sport we love.

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                          • #28

                            Re: Possible time based elims idea

                            Ryan,
                            You said that the conditions will change in between heats, how would the conditions change because I know that it can’t be the weather because the heats are back to back, and I know that it can’t be because of the other heat because the referee/race director waits until the water has calmed down some. So what do you mean by this

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                            • #29

                              Re: Possible time based elims idea

                              Yes I do mean changing weather conditions. I also see changing conditions based on boats not making the start, etc. A lot of things are constantly changing in our races. I prefer racing the people on the course with me. In your example, I am not just racing those competitors, but also the “ghost” of those not on the course. Take this for instance... Elim one gets perfect water conditions and all boats put down great times. Now elim two goes out and there is a big wreck. It takes time to get that cleaned up and the re-run completed. Now the wind really picks up prior to elim three. It is still raceable but barely. Because of the time that the first heat put down, you could conceivably win your elim but not have a fast enough time to make the final.

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                              • M Miner
                                M Miner commented
                                Editing a comment
                                Winning the heat is usually an auto advance. you could go as far as top 3 in each heat then go to time.

                            • #30

                              Re: Possible time based elims idea

                              Unfortunately, this isn't the 1970's anymore when there were 6-10 elims at the Nationals in just about every class. IN those days, this idea would have made more sense. But now, you're lucky to get 3 elims in CSH and 20ssH. Everything else is 2...and sometimes none. So in reality, how many guys are really "lucking" into the finals because of a weak elim heat? If all it takes is a slow third....to a 5th/6th....then there's no excuses. If you're fast enough and a good enough driver....you're going to get in the finals. Sure, some heats are tougher than others...but if you can't beat them in qualifying...then you aren't beating them in the finals.
                              A better option is going to a 3 heat format for the finals or qualifying. More water time plus it truly separates the top from the bottom. Gotta get it right 3 times...a true test of driving/speed.
                              Brian10s, TAndersonV11 and 2 others like this.

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