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  • 300SSH and HOC points and High Points

    I decided I could no longer keep quiet after reading several posts and conversations about the 300 class. A little prerequisite before you read this thread. I help start this class, I raced the class, I never beat Terry Kerr. I don't cry about it at night. If this offends you, please read the entire post before commenting.

    There has been discussion amongst the ranks about changing the 300 class, to a novice only class, no high points, no HOC criteria, etc... this is mainly due to a single individual, who I will name, Terry Kerr. Terry has won the class three years in a row. Well that's not fair huh?

    So let's think about this for a seond. How many times has Pater won a CSH/20SSH, or Hearn in BSH, or heck, Sutherland in CSR. Is it fair to remove them because those are not a novice class? And why is this a novice class? Isn't suppose to be a true stock outboard class? Isn't 300 the fastest growing class, attracting both novice and experienced drivers. Where do novice drivers cut their teeth against some real competitors? I learned more about driving by having Terry in front of me at Dayton when he set the record in 300 in 2016 then I did chasing a half or full lap behind Pater in 20SSH.

    Also, if you do a little fact checking, Stephen Lisius, Joel Kiddy, Dean Sutherland, Eric Wienczak, Mark Miskerik and TJ have all beat Terry this year at races. Let's throw them all out too! (check High Points and race schedules)

    Oh, it must be the boat! Let's throw out a boat that's how many years old? It's not fair. Right? The boat that was build for 20SSH when the 300 was even in existence. Well it must be the boat? How many of you in this discussion have had serious discussion with getting a copy of the boat built for you. Before I decided to go another route, I know I did.

    For the boat, after Terry won in Grass Lake, I was there with 2 members of the SORC that measured, remeasured, and measured a third time, because it's just not fair. Guess what, the boat was legal!

    Bototm line, I urge everyone to stop this bickering, stop the unfair crys, and let's focus on what truly matters at this stage...the continual growth of our sport.

    And for clarification, I moved to 45SST, not becasue I couldn't beat Terry, but becasue my knees can no longer take the pounding, but I might as well blame the 300 class for that too. If I was out front I would have had a better ride right?








    Last edited by DtwSailor; 01-16-2018, 08:37 AM.
    bill hoctor, Sharon Kerr and 5 others like this.
    When it comes to boat racing and the wife, it's easier to ask for forgiveness than it is permission, and of course I spent a number of nights sleeping on the couch!

  • #2

    Re: 300SSH and HOC points and High Points

    Reproduced from the other thread but probably best here.
    The Intent of the 300ss class is clear and reproduced here:
    To have what could be our first ever “stock” outboard class in APBA racing. This class shall lower barriers to entry, have very low startup costs and provide a place for new members to hone their racing skills before making a transition into the faster classes. It will also offer a class to current drivers that no longer wish to race at higher speeds.
    So current drivers (ie experienced) are not excluded but should not also be active participants in the faster classes per the intent of the class. Thus HOC points are completely inappropriate for this class. The class is also intended to be a 60 mph Max class, so records are also not appropriate. We have other classes for those games.
    John Adams
    bill hoctor likes this.



    Comment


    • #3

      Re: 300SSH and HOC points and High Points

      That is the proposed intent which is a change....here are some more documents for you:
      2018 SORC Outboard Rules: Page 16: 10. In 300SSH, all straightaway and competition records will be in the competition set up. Straightaway record events that have less than three entries must have a minimum of three authorized 300 propellers to draw from. Also, it is not permissible to draw new propellers in between any of the six runs allotted unless they are deemed damaged by the Inspector. A new draw can only occur after a new registration is entered with the race committee for another six attempts. Drivers establishing the first approved record will not receive APBA Hall of Champions bonus points if qualified for the HOC.

      Page 26 dealing with High Points:


      F. There must be a minimum of four (4) bona fide entries crossing the starting line in one heat for a race to qualify for national high points. The exception will be the 300SSH class which requires three (3) bona fide entries.

      Attached are the rules I have on file for the class, that do state it's a NOVICE class:
      Rules for the new Stock Outboard class:
      302 Super Stock Hydro (302SSH)

      The General Safety and Racing rules / Stock Outboard Racing and Safety rules shall prevail in all situations not specifically covered in the following rules.
      Intent: To have what could be our first ever “stock” outboard class in APBA racing. This class shall lower barriers to entry, have very low startup costs and provide a place for new members to hone their racing skills before making a transition into the faster classes. It will also offer a class to current drivers that no longer wish to race at higher speeds.
      Governing of class rules: Each year the Stock Outboard Chairman may appoint up to four members to join the Chair on the 302 Super Stock Committee. This committee will act as a regulatory board to keep the original intent of the class moving forward and address issues as they arise during the racing season






      And the request we sent to the APBA historical society for the grant money to kickstart the application....where do we say it's a NOVICE class?
      "Assistance is needed from the Historical Society to help our program spread across the country. We have a new “spec” class in Stock Outboard that has just finished its first season with over twenty drivers participating. It is very difficult to get our program rolling in other areas without having the class racing at every local race.
      With a loan to purchase motors and boats we can attain this and with a grant, we can make it happen."
      Dropbox is a free service that lets you bring your photos, docs, and videos anywhere and share them easily. Never email yourself a file again!
      When it comes to boat racing and the wife, it's easier to ask for forgiveness than it is permission, and of course I spent a number of nights sleeping on the couch!

      Comment


      • #4

        Re: 300SSH and HOC points and High Points

        Good for you Terry and team!

        Don't be a rule breaker; be a rule maker!

        If I remember correctly, Bob Wartinger said the fastest he ever went at Lawrence in a CSH was in the plastic boat like Terry's. Problem was, when it came to the corner, it would go into frisbee-mode. Sounds like the boat-builder might be onto something as these slower speeds. Best part of it was when Brain "showed" the inspectors the collapsible tips..
        Sharon Kerr likes this.
        http://vitalire.com/

        Comment


        • #5

          Re: 300SSH and HOC points and High Points

          Dean's explanation is spot on "300H is a cost controlled and competitively balanced class that exists to offer maximum competition with minimum time and cost." For this reason, I've looked at switching over to this class several times in the last two years and am still looking at it especially since my oldest, Dominic, will be racing this summer. There will be no time to work on my own equipment and stay competitive down the road and I'm not ready to step away from driving just yet.

          My only suggestion, if one HAS to be made, is to create a 300 Hydro Veteran Class and a 300 Hydro Rookie Class. The two should be raced at the same time, so the rookies can learn from the veterans, but be scored separately. Someone suggested the rookies could wear a stripe on their helmet or could do something different like a flag taped to their gas tank, something to help signify the difference between drivers. Maybe the Rookie class can only be raced after X number of wins or for X number of years then they automatically move up to the Veterans class. Maybe the Rookie class can't race for HOC but I wouldn't want to take a National Championship from them. Just ideas. I really do believe the 300 Hydro structure is the future of Stock Outboard Racing. I've mentioned this before but Dean Sutherland has some really good ideas and I hope he shares them here with all of you as he did with me a month ago.

          bill hoctor, dpdeck and 2 others like this.
          Joe Silvestri
          CSH/500MH

          Comment


          • Graham 18ce
            Graham 18ce commented
            Editing a comment
            This could work...must be raced at the same time though...COuld do like super cross..white back number plate for Vets and Rookies get Black . Would help identify from what too...
            Really, I'm still not seeing where this class is failing. If i think back to three years ago and this guy who we are calling "Terry" jumped in a hydro. crap, we added a class to a guy who races already. a hydro at that! seems to be good..
            3 years later, he is still doing good. well, them roll up drivers that spend loads of time running marathons are likely to be pretty good drivers and used the boats bouncing around and getting a little out of shape...hmmm...add it some supper talent and this guy is going to be out there beating you where ever he can get a ride.
            I don't see it as a reason to pull him out of the class. after all, he only has what 3 years of experience driving hydros. Hardly a Vet in my opinion...Maybe we should focus on roll up runabouts and marathon racing to develop more quality drivers...
            How many past champions but their share of time in doing well in roll up boats!

        • #6

          Re: 300SSH and HOC points and High Points

          THANK YOU MIKE! Too many years ago I stepped into my first ever race rig - an ASH. I was never "allowed" to race J as my mom wouldn't have it. Yes, my rig was fast. However, back then there were large fields in ASH and I learned from the best......Billy Allen, Rich Runne, Michael Kench to name a few. There was not a "novice" and "veteran" ASH class. I learned how to drive from these incredible drivers and may have even won a heat against them but, not without a lot of practice first. We have turned into an age of "everyone gets a trophy." To be the best you have to learn from the best. If you want to win in any sport, you have to practice and put in the work.
          bill hoctor, and 2 others like this.

          Comment


          • spud62w
            spud62w commented
            Editing a comment
            Great comment. No one wants to do the work anymore. I think that's the whole problem with racing today.

          • Ericwienczak
            Ericwienczak commented
            Editing a comment
            Time to put in that work T!!


            Grab a drill, pop in the restrictor and let's play around in 20ssh!

            (I know your feelings towards 20 Sharon , but come on it will be fun ! )

        • #7

          Re: 300SSH and HOC points and High Points

          My only suggestion, if one HAS to be made, is to create a 300 Hydro Veteran Class and a 300 Hydro Rookie Class. The two should be raced at the same time, so the rookies can learn from the veterans, but be scored separately. Someone suggested the rookies could wear a stripe on their helmet or could do something different like a flag taped to their gas tank, something to help signify the difference between drivers. Maybe the Rookie class can only be raced after X number of wins or for X number of years then they automatically move up to the Veterans class. Maybe the Rookie class can't race for HOC but I wouldn't want to take a National Championship from them. Just ideas. I really do believe the 300 Hydro structure is the future of Stock Outboard Racing. I've mentioned this before but Dean Sutherland has some really good ideas and I hope he shares them here with all of you as he did with me a month ago.
          Good idea Joe.
          sigpic

          Dean F. Hobart

          Comment


          • #8

            Re: 300SSH and HOC points and High Points

            It has been a while since I posted anything, but this got my attention. On the west coast we have almost no "rookies" running 300. What we do have is a decent amount of rigs with more on the way. 300 allows drivers with a limited checkbook to be competitive. How is this a bad thing??

            Joe Johnson

            Comment


            • Ram4x4
              Ram4x4 commented
              Editing a comment
              See, I would argue that 300 is for the limited checkbook. Unless someone is selling a used, sealed engine, then you're looking at $3,000+ just for the engine. A good used CSH or 20 rig can be had for that, or less...for the entire rig with enough left over for a prop or two (when you get to the point of chasing props).

              Being competitive is really not a subject that should be coupled with rookie driver. Yes, yes, everyone wants to win, but there is a lot to learn and that's not something a new driver gets their first season out. I'm more concerned that they get the feel for racing with 11 other boats around them, developing their situational awareness, etc. Competitiveness comes later. With few exceptions, that's usually how it goes as well. Sure, 300 provides the opportunity to get into that competitive edge sooner, but to grow (which I think is the primary focus for most of this off season bantering) we need new drivers to buy rigs and start driving. We've had a number of our driver school grads jump right into classes other than 300 (I am one of them).

              Truth be told, that might actually be safer because unless they are some kind of prodigy, chances are real good they're not going to bang starts and they're not going to be up front running in a pack. They will be near the back where they can get the feel for their new sport and only have to race with a couple of boats around them vs a big group barreling into turn 1 because everyone is relatively equal in terms of performance. I will be the first to admit that the first few times I managed some good starts, I was scared sh**tless when I realized I was about to head into the first turn with 6 other boats inches away. When you add the veterans that are running 300 as well, and let's make no mistake here, 300 already has a reputation as a "crash class", is that really where a rookie needs to be the first season out?

              To be honest, I was hoping to be running 300 my second season out, but haven't purchased a sealed engine yet. After sitting in turn boats for a couple years now, in some ways I'm kind of glad I didn't and at this point I'm still waivering on whether I want to go into that class. Going into my 4th season, I'm still not sure I have the skills to mix it up with 5-6 aggressive drivers in the 1st turn in that class.

              Either way, 300 does provide a certain difference compared to the other classes, but I'm not sure I would categorize it as cheaper, or good for a rookie.

          • #9

            Re: 300SSH and HOC points and High Points

            Boy.....I sure wish I could turn back the clock when the rules were made for this class..........

            Comment


            • Big Don
              Big Don commented
              Editing a comment
              Dave, you can't make a comment and not say what you would do different..

              Let's hear it.

            • GrandpaRacer
              GrandpaRacer commented
              Editing a comment
              Actually you did address the issue with this in the Intent of the class," It will also offer a class to current drivers that no longer wish to race at higher speeds." It just got ignored...

          • #10

            Re: 300SSH and HOC points and High Points

            Easy - When you get a total of 10.000 points you are out of 300-- Local hobby racer that runs 4 races a year could run for 10 years - Hot racer could be out in 2 seasons .

            Comment


            • #11

              Re: 300SSH and HOC points and High Points

              My intent on creating this class was zero drama. Really. Zero drama.

              Comment


              • #12

                Re: 300SSH and HOC points and High Points

                I will be a Chicago. If u have issues with what is going on with class, come see me or Jeff Brewster. Remember, he has other obligations stock wise.

                Comment


                • #13

                  Re: 300SSH and HOC points and High Points

                  Big don: I would change the hall of champion criterion’s for class. I would change who is eligible for class, etc/ stuff that Jeff and myself never thought would be an issue.

                  Comment


                  • Joe J
                    Joe J commented
                    Editing a comment
                    I get the HOC comment but why change who is eligible? In my opinion having experience on the water at the same time as rookies helps the rookie, ( starts, different driving lines, etc.....).

                    Right now there are at least 8 complete rigs in CA and not a single rookie. We are trying to rebuild racing in this state and 300 is a huge help. How is that a bad thing?

                    Joe

                • #14

                  Re: 300SSH and HOC points and High Points

                  I'm going to jump in here and probably get splashed out of the pool, but here goes. First of all the idea of a Rookie Class sounds.., sounded good. But when it is time to write unambiguous rules which need to be understood by scorers [oft forgotten] and the referee [who is busy as heck] and the Inspector [ yer out, huh?] things go downhill fast. That's what driver schools are for, then you don a helmet with an X on it, race a couple races holding your instinct to pass the boat in front, until you can remove the X. Then, if you are a real competitive person who has chosen boat racing because it X-cites you... you don't really want to be looked at by those watching as a rookie. Of course, if your driving techniques are stupid.., you will be branded as a dope and certainly a rookie. But racing isn't meant for rookies. Drivers schools are.

                  Some folks often say boat racing isn't a spectator sport. Really? Well, It certainly isn't when it's boring to watch. Of course, boring is a relative term.., sort of. I mean, if your 2 kids are out there driving a boat and about to pass the lead boat.., it is hardly boring to you. It's exciting as heck. But, to any one who happens to hear noise and stop by the site hoping to see some kind of AK-SHUN.., only to watch a series of 4 or 5 boat parades, using motors they can't identify with.., and which all look the same.., hahahaa they fail to see any excitement and just drive on by.

                  NASCAR.., in a sense is suffering from diminished spectator crowds..., same old cars tail-to-tail, tail-to-tail, tail-to-tail, caution-lap, tail-to-tail, for 200 laps. Now and then there's a heck-uva-wreck, but generally pretty boring. People may not attend a race to see wrecks, but they definitely attend for the excitement. Football, basketball, socccer, ice-hockey... EXX-citement..., AK-SHUN.. Get my point??

                  The 300 Class is a great class. The prop idea is a winner. The sealed motor is a winner. The speed bracket is a winner. And, best of all the boat specs are good enough that the grass-roots racer-family can build the darn thing..., and maybe come up with a winner.. IF driven by an individual who is in it to win. Meanwhile, there is plenty of room in the class for all the rest to just get out there and have FUN without the anxiety of needing to spend chunks of cash for props and motor-work. HOWEVER.... people need to test and tweak every angle they can find. That my friendly choir members is where.., in our plug-n-play society, that this thing breaks down.

                  Go ahead shoot at me.., And, if you have even read this far to do that, I commend you because be the waves, be they positive or negative it is good to know how people think.
                  Last edited by ram95; 01-20-2018, 11:47 AM. Reason: I edited this because it just wasn't long enough to put everyone to sleep.

                  Comment


                  • #15

                    Re: 300SSH and HOC points and High Points

                    Having just purchased a new sealed 321 and a couple new boats, I am in hopes that the class structure with regards to driver makeup will remain open to anyone who wants to join the class regardless of experience.Experienced drivers can only help any class that would contain inexperienced drivers, just common sense. With regards for it being a cheaper entry class, I certainly disagree, by the time you buy a new sealed engine, new or used boat, and a prop, you could purchase a pretty good rig in almost any class.This class does benefit the aging group of racers like me who do not race for high points or do not have alot of time for testing.This is the perfect class! You can get more bang for your buck with the same boat, you get to race against another group of racers that you may not run against in your current class, the club gets more money, a win for everyone! I just want to race, speed is unimportant, points are unimportant,on the other hand, a good martini with friends after the race, is very important!!
                    Just saying!
                    Last edited by Herb Lanphear; 01-20-2018, 01:31 PM.



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