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  • #31

    Re: Our actual problem..

    Dean,
    Thanks for your input. There are quite a few excellent posts on this thread, in particular, those that realize that the class changes have very little impact on attracting new people to the sport. That requires us to reach out beyond our comfort zone. APBA does now have an active and capable Promotional Committee that is working on creating the tools we all need to grow boat racing.
    APBA also now has an active and hopefully capable Steering Committee that has just begun working on creating a Mission Statement, a Vision statement, objectives and a strategy to obtain new goals for the organization. So, many things are in the works in the big picture.

    Something you touched on earlier in regard to the 300 class. Last year I made a proposal which states: "Any driver with a prior National Championship or a National Hi-point Championship in APBA, will NOT receive HOC points earned in the 300SSH class."
    The 300 committee did not allow a vote by the commission.

    Here is another proposal I may try to gain support for as well. This one is out of the box, but think about it. "Any driver with a prior National Championship or a National Hi-point Championship in APBA, will not receive points in any 300SSH race, but may participate without having to pay an entry fee for the class."

    John

    Comment


    • #32

      Re: Our actual problem..

      The Intent of the 300ss class is clear and reproduced here:
      To have what could be our first ever “stock” outboard class in APBA racing. This class shall lower barriers to entry, have very low startup costs and provide a place for new members to hone their racing skills before making a transition into the faster classes. It will also offer a class to current drivers that no longer wish to race at higher speeds.
      So current drivers (ie experienced) are not excluded but should not also be active participants in the faster classes per the intent of the class. Thus HOC points are completely inappropriate for this class. The class is also intended to be a 60 mph Max class, so records are also not appropriate. We have other classes for those games.
      John Adams



      Comment


      • #33

        Re: Our actual problem..

        Here is where I struggle.

        What is it that has everyone up in arms with Terry winning 300? Is it that he has won 3 in a row? Is it that he got into the HOC?

        I feel this sums the class up, it's what Dean wrote: 300H is a cost controlled and competitively balanced class that exists to offer maximum competition with minimum time and cost. Problem is not everyone agrees with this.

        I feel after that, may the best person win.

        Yes Terry is winning, yes at times he drives through the field, yes he has been beaten at times, yes he bangs starts, yes he has gone from the middle of the pack to the front and we typically don't see that in this class, yes I have seen guys give him the inside when they could have closed the door legally. Yes I think Terry or Brian or TJ or whoever owns that rig is on to something. Terry is a good driver but even Terry driving the boat should not drive through the field in a competitively balanced class. But guess what, they either got lucky with something or they figured something else out. If the boat has truly been measured as has been mentioned. The engines I believe were sealed by Rick Montoya, they engines have been inspected after every nationals event, impounded at a record race and sent to a different inspector to inspect. Everything checks out.

        I believe its the boat, many people disagree with me. But...Brian said something at Pell Lake with a few people standing around, something about that bottom being different. Something about the back of the boat is wider than the front. That leads me to believe it's the boat. Now, maybe Brian was being honest or maybe he was messing with people. I don't know and really didn't care.

        Now, if that is true, is it legal? I say yes, the rule only mentions a minimum distance between the sponsons and air traps.

        So it leads to this question, and I feel this is the only thing that we should consider. Is that rig hurting the class? If we can prove that its hindering the growth of the class we should maybe look at doing something. But I have not heard from one person that said it's hurting and we had a new person quit. I'm not talking about Don Allen deciding he can't win so he goes back to 20. Is anyone quitting the sport because of it?

        I will also say if the boat is wider and we do feel that is the reason. Make a rule that says the bottom width must be straight. Yes it would take that boat out of the class, but if what Mike Deck says is true, that it was built for 20 anyways. it's not like they built the boat for the class. The reason I say that is, if it's truly a cost controlled class we don't want people having to buy trick boats to be competitive
        "Ask anyone, I have no friends. I do have some people that put up with me and mostly because they like the rest of my family"

        Don Allen

        Comment


        • GrandpaRacer
          GrandpaRacer commented
          Editing a comment
          The only 300ss race I have watched was at Grass Lake and I don’t recall much. My comments are based on being a completely outside observer and reading stuff here and the rules.

      • #34

        Re: Our actual problem..

        Where does it end? If the only issue is that Terry has won too much, what about the rest? Dana Holt has dominated just as much in 20. Joe Pater in C. The list goes on and on. Fast guys are fast for a reason. They work harder than the rest of you. As soon as you start outlawing domination in one class, it is a slippery slope not to apply it to the rest of your classes.

        Or is the issue because 300 is supposed to be different? Supposed to be uber competitive where everyone and anyone has a chance to win every heat? Or is that just the press clippings that we have been feeding newbies so they will join the class?

        300 was never supposed to be where everyone has an equal chance of winning. In 300, you would not have to send your motor away for the latest trick (the cooling issue and 321's already void that promise but whatever) or spend big money on props (that still holds true). No one ever said it was equal or fair. Fast guys are always fast and hard work still pays off.

        Otherwise, instead of drawing props, just draw who wins at drivers meeting and then send everyone out for ice cream (no sprinkles because those are for winners).
        Brian 10s

        Comment


        • CSH12M
          CSH12M commented
          Editing a comment
          I disagree with your definition. I feel 300 was supposed to be different and was supposed to be equal. It was not created to just outlaw blueprinting, it was created to put everyone on an equal playing field. Cost controlled and competitively balanced. With the same national champion for three years its fair to ask if it competitively balanced? If we all agree that its not prop or motor, then I think it is only natural to think about the current boat dimensions that govern the class. It at least merits some thought and discussion? Has it or will it turn into a boat builders class? If that is possible are the current dimensions sufficient for the future. Maybe the answer is yes, but SORC should consider it before more boats are built.

        • Matt Dagostino
          Matt Dagostino commented
          Editing a comment
          Brian........love ya man but 300ssh is DIFFERENT and the goal is to try to make sure everyone has a equal chance to win! Hence the sealed motor rule, prop rule and boat rules! It is what it is and folks seem to like it......

      • #35

        Re: Our actual problem..

        THANK YOU BRIAN!!!! It's funny that I have heard mentioned the domination of other drivers in CSH yet we aren't talking about eliminating boats. I can think of several drivers that have dominated other classes and won multiple HOC titles, yet we continue to beat this horse. It is a truly stock class and with an up and coming J driver, it is difficult to find the time and money to work on other classes. Bottom line, the boat is fast! Terry has slid into every national win without back-to-back heat wins - with three different motors! He is an incredible driver, however, Brian built an amazing boat. I do not know any other true boat racer that wouldn't welcome a ride offered to them like that. Stop your belly aching, do your homework. I am SO over all of the BS and tired of keeping my mouth shut. Not a trick boat. A well thought out boat. A boat that was originally built for someone else who didn't "like" the boat. I am sure my dad is incredibly proud of Brian. At the same time I am sure he is rolling over with the direction this organization is going. So sad.....

        Comment


        • #36

          Re: Our actual problem..

          The boat was built for me and I did like it, but when Ponch passed I thought Brian should have it. It is the last one that he built and I thought it should belong to Brian not me. Yes the back is a bit wider than the front by accident not intention. However, I don't think that makes any difference. The dimension that has not been discussed is overall length. Terry boat is smaller than most others and it is ultra light on the front end. A few years ago after measuring a lot of the current CSH the 300 committee realized that many CSH would not meet the current 300 boat dimensions. The dimensions were significantly reduced and that allowed that boat to meet the minimum length dimension, fair and square. I do not think anyone has any issue with that or has implied anything different. The questions that was raised earlier is... do we do anything at all with the class? Sharon post above says "do your homework", is that what the class is supposed to be? As the current boat rules are written they leave a lot of margin for design. You can design and build a smaller (B size) boat, I would go with 35 inch wide bottom, a lot of lift, maybe a rocker and very light. In essence a dedicated 300 boat. Is that what the SORC wants in this class? Racers are always going to look for an angle to win a race. My earlier comments have nothing to do with Terry in particular, but the future of the 300 class and where it goes from here. In my opinion (and I really don't care that much) if it becomes a boat builders class that becomes the "path of least resistance" for veteran drivers to get into the HOC then it is failing at its purpose.
          Last edited by CSH12M; 01-16-2018, 02:41 PM.

          Comment


          • #37

            Re: Our actual problem..

            Dean and Matt - you both are discussing what the intent was when creating it, which is fine. What the class is currently is different than what envisioned and that may not be a bad thing.

            Dean - should a 1960 Sidcraft have an equal chance of competing because it matches the quote set specs unquote. The boat in question was built prior to the 300 class even being created. If you think other builders haven't started thinking about how to get faster within the rules, your crazy. 300 was always going to grow into a boat builders class. It's the only variable left. We have see it - the newest boat tends to be in front. Unless the SORC is going to go to a single boat manufacture class as well. That is the only way to stop it.

            Matt - the only way everyone has an equal chance to win is if you make this rule - In 300, if a driver wins blank number of races, a National Championship, High Point Championship or set a record in a racing season, he is banned form the class for the next season. Otherwise, fast guys are fast and there is nothing you can do to get around that fact.

            I understand the difference between what the class should be and what it is. The question is to get it back to what you believe it was supposed to be, do you kill it with changes?
            Brian 10s

            Comment


            • CSH12M
              CSH12M commented
              Editing a comment
              Brian, that is a ridiculous analogy. If you want to run B size boats in the class, great. It only goes 60MPH and Terry has proven it can be done. I am just asking are we good with that? I honestly don't care what is or is not done, but I cant resist chiming in on the issue as I think it is being framed wrong. This is not an issue with a driver or a boat, its an issue about what 300H is or isn't and what should it be in the future.

            • Brian10s
              Brian10s commented
              Editing a comment
              Dean,
              Yes the Sidcraft was extreme and ridiculous but it also proved a point.

              We are saying the same thing from different sides. I don't disagree with your version/vision of what 300 WAS supposed to be. I'm just saying that version is much further away from where the current 300 class is and where it is going. Unless you go with a single design boat class, you will always be behind what the latest boat builder will come up with. You will be outlawing boats every year or 2 as the next person finds a combination that becomes dominate.

              You are 100% correct - the question is what 300 is currently and what everyone wants it to be going forward. And if change is needed to correct the course, what effect will those changes have on not only the current drivers but also future drivers. Because you need to weight both equally. Without the current drivers, there might not be a class for the future driver. Back to 3 or 4 boat heats of newbies at only certain club races.

              I don't run the class, so I'm not protecting anything. I just think we need to be VERY careful in outlawing dominance because that cuts against the basic, fundamental core of what boat racing is - competition and rewarding hard work.
              Last edited by Brian10s; 01-17-2018, 10:02 AM.

          • #38

            Re: Our actual problem..

            Here we go...problem solved, sealed motors and identical boats, then we introduce betting like horse racing and you watch how fast we get EXSPOSURE and public interest!

            Boat-Race-Fukuoka.png
            leaving-docks.jpg

            Comment


            • jsilvestri
              jsilvestri commented
              Editing a comment
              You beat me to it by 10 minutes! I did incorporate a little of our style into it but those are just details that could be worked out!

          • #39

            Re: Our actual problem..

            Brian is not wrong that the boat will become the one variable that can be modified and tweaked for maximum performance. Is that wrong? I'm not sure but I will say that the class seems to be working and continues to grow so I would be very hesitant to make changes.

            Why not take all of the good ideas from the 300 Hydro class as well as the good ideas bounced around the last several days and create a 300 Runabout class. This has been tried before but there is still a lot of R and D that could be done to make it work. I appreciate those who tried before but a CSR is to big for a rig that is going to run 55-60 MPH. A 25 Mercury boat is closer to the correct size but even that doesn't have the proper planing surface or lift to run at those speeds with the 321 hanging on the transom. Or, why not build something like the Japanese use??? There is no side fin and those drivers roll-up and flat turn their way around a turn. I believe Darrell Sorenson had one or two several years back. We could measure one of those boats??? I'm sure our boat builders would have lots of ideas.



            Sealed Motor/Supplied Propeller/One-Off boat - Other forms of motor sports do this why can't we???
            • Have our runabout boat builders and designers get together and design a one-off boat. APBA could adopt the plans and then anyone, veteran boat builder or rookie do-it-yourself boat builder could buy or build themselves a boat to exact spec. The only thing I would allow is the use of different materials in key places within the boat to either make it heaver for light drivers or lighter for heavy drivers. (For example, allow for either solid wood, wood/composite or full composite cockpit sides to accommodate weight.)
            • Sealed engine
            • Supplied Propeller
            • Specific Engine Height-DEEP! No need to modify the engine!
            • Specific Set-Back rule
            • Rookie and Veteran distinctions that race together but are scored separate.
            • Have a smaller race course (say like the one raced on last year at Constantine when the wind came up and made the regular course to big and rough. I'm guessing a 1/2 mile) but would race 4-5 laps
            • Depending on the design of the boat, the course could even be 1 buoy like the Japanese race on.
            • Could implement Lemans starts at race courses where appropriate.
            • Race a 3 heat format when appropriate (time allows, your consolation heat is built in)
            If something like this were to be introduced I WOULD SELL MY EQUIPMENT and join this class in a heartbeat!!!
            Joe Silvestri
            CSH/500MH

            Comment


            • #40

              Re: Our actual problem..

              JOE SILVESTRI,

              YOU ARE THE MAN !

              MAKE BOAT RACING THE DRIVER AGAIN, AND FUN FOR SPECTATORS AND MONEY SPONSORS TO LOVE AND WATCH !

              ON SHORT WITH FIERCE RACING COURSES !

              REGARDS,
              PAUL

              PS,

              AS NANCY REAGAN SAID JUST SAY NO TO BORING BOAT PARADES WHILE CALLING IT RACING !
              Last edited by Original Looper 1; 01-17-2018, 09:31 AM.

              Comment


              • #41

                Re: Our actual problem..

                Isn't the dumbing down of America great!!

                Comment


                • Matt Dagostino
                  Matt Dagostino commented
                  Editing a comment
                  Mitch............can't you tell it is a long cold winter.............What else is there to do but banter on Hydroracer.....matt.

                • jsilvestri
                  jsilvestri commented
                  Editing a comment
                  It isn't dumbing down anything! Its offering a different option for those who don't want or who can't afford to spend all of their time and money on one sport yet still want to race boats. Not everyone wants to compete in the pro stock/funny car/top fuel dragster division. Pardon my comparison but... By the way, look at those divisions of drag racing and tell me how they are doing in participation, tv coverage etc... Its not what it once was and that fact that its become more expensive and high tech each year isn't helping!

                • modsquad
                  modsquad commented
                  Editing a comment
                  Yes, just look at Trump!

              • #42

                Re: Our actual problem..

                4614903161_442x296.jpg
                These boats are built like tanks!

                Comment


                • #43

                  Re: Our actual problem..

                  Isn't the dumbing down of America great!!
                  #MAGA is working!
                  sigpic

                  Comment


                  • #44

                    Re: Our actual problem..

                    I was talking to a boat builder today and he informed me that he is in the design stage, but he is working on a boat for 300 only. He said it will be super light, meet every dimension by ¼ inch, tons of lift, rocker that just meets the rule. So yes this will turn into a boats being built specifically for the class.
                    "Ask anyone, I have no friends. I do have some people that put up with me and mostly because they like the rest of my family"

                    Don Allen

                    Comment


                    • CSH12M
                      CSH12M commented
                      Editing a comment
                      OMG - I swear I had the same thing in a post and then deleted that part. I have drawn out that exact same set of plans. Same thing exactly with a 35 inch wide bottom. It ends up being a wide B hydro. The only reason it is not on the jig, is because I don't want to park outside because this winter has been so cold. I also don't think it is right for the class and was afraid the rules would be changed again. If they are not, that is the exact boat I would build.

                    • pav225
                      pav225 commented
                      Editing a comment
                      Guys, there are already a lot of new boats built for 300ssH. I would assume that many are already pretty close to the minimum dimensions.

                      Heck, Jake Alkema had a new boat built out of the same mold that was used to make Terry's.

                      I think it's probably too late to to add more boat dimensions, or trying to limit new boats.

                      Fortunately for the class, many have done well with inexpensive, used boats.

                  • #45

                    Re: Our actual problem..

                    So now a class that was intended to be LOW COST, LOW TIME investment will turn into dropping $3000-3500 for a new boat in order to compete.
                    Hmmm....sounds counterintuitive.
                    Not surprised this is happening...that's racing. Do what you can to win.

                    Comment


                    • Flatiron
                      Flatiron commented
                      Editing a comment
                      That is exactly what happens in every form of spec/sealed racing. Class specific chassis that is usually the most expensive part of the package
                      Last edited by Flatiron; 01-17-2018, 01:37 PM.
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