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  • #16

    Re: Our actual problem..

    Itís funny reading all this stuff, Facebook, emails, phone callsÖ.about how ####ed up we all are on the commissions or on the BOD of APBA.

    Itís funny how when things work and you see what happens to a class it changes your perspective.

    If I were trying to fix the sport and Iíll just focus on Stock Outboard I would do the following:

    300 class has shown us it works.

    You need to have rigs available to buy when the person is most enthused. There is a reason good sales people try and close a deal when you are there. They know they greatly reduce their chance of selling to you if you leave to think about it, or you may find something different. We need to have the same mentality with prospective buyers.

    I was not for a novice and a veteran 300 class when it came out, but I see a lot of value to this class for a large majority of racers.

    Many veterans have said they just want to race and have fun and not buy 20 props and test 10 times a summer any more. Nor do they want to have their engine blue printed to be competitive. It can be time, money, other hobbies, family time, etc for the reason for this. We need to have a home for these racers.

    I would also figure out how to do this for a runabout class. I have to believe if it works for a Hydro it will work with a runabout. Yamato or Sidewinder, I donít care. A sealed Runabout class somehow.

    We need to have rigs available ready to sell. How do you do that? With some hard work and figuring out how to financially pull that off. Going to a Ryan Runne or a Brandon Orlieb, a Sam Hemp or someone who can produce boats and would be willing to take payments or wait for payment when it sells. We need to use our funds to grow this sport. We need to have Yamatos ready to sell, we need to have Sidewinders ready to sell. TJ, Montoya, are already doing this somewhat, buying them waiting for someone to call. Maybe APBA has to get involved with the owning and selling of rigs? The manufactures needs to help here. If I were Sidewinder I would figure out how to get 4 BSR rigs out West and let people make payments, lease to own, just get them out there. Get the SORC, APBA, Historical Society involved. We all spend 1000.00ís every year to race. Raise our dues 40.00 for promotional expenses at 350 members, you have 14,000.00. Raise the Participating membership 40.00, you decide what category you want the funds to go to and help your category. Go to the historical society and see if they will help. Do this for a few years we can have rigs all over the country. As they sell you replace them with another. I know there are people that are going to complain about the 40.00. Or why should a volunteer have to even pay to volunteer. We all do this because we care, love the sport, etc. Look at it as a donation to something you love. If you are not willing to throw 40.00 in the fund to save this sport. Then well, Iím sorry.

    If we donít do something and change our 1980 thinking we are going to have nothing.

    Yes we have to make some tuff decision on the commissions and the BOD. But we are all doing it because we need to try something to save this sport. I have a hard time believing anyone of us woke up today saying I want this sport to fail. If you did, you need to get out and find something else to do that makes you happy.
    "Ask anyone, I have no friends. I do have some people that put up with me and mostly because they like the rest of my family"

    Don Allen

    Comment


    • Dr. Thunder
      Dr. Thunder commented
      Editing a comment

    • Ram4x4
      Ram4x4 commented
      Editing a comment
      100% agree on the availability of school rigs to sell AT the school event. I know, rigs cost money, but what are clubs doing to raise that initial investment? I don't know that I;d approach a builder and ask for credit. instead, I;d ask for a discount for school boats with the understand that builder will get that business from that club. Then, you sell the rig at a small profit. now you have the funds to replace the rig and keep a small amount in the club coffers.

  • #17

    Re: Our actual problem..

    It's always funny when this time of year comes around. It's a wonder that everyone doesn't sign up to be on the Commissions or the BOD - it pays so well and every single of them gets faster after every meeting. It's proven and documented - 1 mph per phone meeting and 3 mph per National Meeting.

    I want to thank each and every Commissioner, Director and every other person who spends their hard earned money and time for the betterment of the sport, not just at the National Meeting but all year long. We all should be much more appreciative.

    Regardless of how stupid you all are, how you are killing the sport/class or just protecting your own trailerbox with your decisions, I will say thank you for your dedication and effort.
    Last edited by Brian10s; 01-10-2018, 10:03 AM.
    Brian 10s

    Comment


    • #18

      Re: Our actual problem..

      Exposure is great...hard to get in out level of sport, in any motor sport...we are low budget race outside of cities as we don't want noise issues, or need pit locations, or water contidions are too open, etc...
      Bigger boats and sponsors draw attention...'seafleas' are limited...Get more inboard and unlimited hydros on tv regularly, then you can get a fan base for them, that isn't racers...and maybe you can draw a few going i want to do that...then market yourself as a starting ground to the big boats, pushing names like Shane, Runne, Tate, Stevenson etc... who ran stocks and moved up to inboard, some on to unlimited.
      Really hard to want something you don't know exists..
      ----
      Graham18ce
      Team Canada ThunderCat
      Facebook - www.facebook.com\fralickracing
      Twitter @FralickRacing
      Instagram @FralickRacing

      Comment


      • Apachemax
        Apachemax commented
        Editing a comment
        Exposure wouldnt be hard to obtain with proper display and demonstration to the proper audience.
        We wont ever have a "fan base" neither will inboards.
        The sport, as it is structured, is marketable to people who want to race on a smaller scale. Same group of people who would race Go Karts, motocross, Stock cars ( G-bodys or FWD civics and the like)

        Youre right, hard to want to do something you dont know exists. Lets let the right people know the sport exists.

    • #19

      Re: Our actual problem..

      It's always funny when this time of year comes around. It's a wonder that everyone doesn't sign up to be on the Commissions or the BOD - it pays so well and every single of them gets faster after every meeting. It's proven and documented - 1 mph per phone meeting and 3 mph per National Meeting.

      I want to thank each and every Commissioner, Director and every other person who spends their hard earned money and time for the betterment of the sport, not just at the National Meeting but all year long. We all should be much more appreciative.

      Regardless of how stupid you all are, how you are killing the sport/class or just protecting your own trailerbox with your decisions, I will say thank you for your dedication and effort.
      ​your spot on Brian!! While I love to read how things could be made better and all these great ideas and how to make things better (on the internet)..........the BIGGEST problem is that only 10% of these people with the great ideas actually move forward and do something about it.............if everything was so simple, then we (or any other organization) would never have any problems. As they say.............your either part of the problem or part of the solution..............

      ​talk to your commissioners, club officers, BOD members, attend club meetings, attend National Meetings, etc.................that's where your voice matters!!!!!!!
      Daren

      ​DSH/750ccmh/850ccmh

      Team Darneille


      sigpic

      Comment


      • Apachemax
        Apachemax commented
        Editing a comment
        So do you find yourself part of the problem or part of the solution?
        Because you just said you like to read how things can be made better but said nothing about how you personally have done anything to promote the sport.
        Seems like your negativity is part of the problem.

        The solution to our problem is simple. Just need to get the attention of the proper audience.

      • Adams52R
        Adams52R commented
        Editing a comment
        Daren does a lot to promote our sport! Loaned out his DSH for a driver at new folks in boats. The next day that driver bought a complete DSH setup. Just one example. He's one that works hard for all of us.

      • DiGia54D
        DiGia54D commented
        Editing a comment
        Daren has let more people run his equipment ( all top notch ) then i have seen anyone else do. His boats have been at Nationals while he was home working. He does A LOT for racing

    • #20

      Re: Our actual problem..

      Interesting thread. When I first starting working on the 300 ssh it just never occurred to myself or Jeff Brewster that veteran drivers would want to run.....Jeff and I spend hours and hours going over this stuff, it just never came up. Thinking back on stuff, I wish we would have done things differently rule wise,,,,but on the other hand we wanted to keep the rules as simple as possible...you sometimes just cant win! In reality, its my humble view that if you want more exposure for the sport, IE more participants, we are going to at some point need to move to 4 stroke engines and get a national sponsor behind us, and get away from the ďtrailer box mentalityĒ that permeates the sport of stock outboard racing.

      Comment


      • Apachemax
        Apachemax commented
        Editing a comment
        I really dont see why we cant continue as we are.
        Why would we need 4 stroke engines? The only benefit to that would be motor availability. Initial investment and cost of ownership would really hurt the sport.

        The point of this thread is as follows: We dont need to change a thing to gain participants. It seriously does come down to how much us as individuals do to promote the sport.
        I do hate the trailer box mentality, I honestly do. I have thousands in Hot Rod equipment that is useless in Stock Outboard, and is sparsely used in mod. I bought a Sidewinder to Support the class i enjoy and the sport i enjoy. My plan was to purchase another to loan out.

        What is permeating Stock Outboard is these constant changes. Nothing we change internally will had participants.

      • Ericwienczak
        Ericwienczak commented
        Editing a comment
        At first it bothered me that veterans were racing 300, now I see it as a chance to beat them. Experienced drivers make mistakes too, and racing against them only makes you better.

        It also helps the turnout in 300. I take pleasure in racing alongside legends like TJ

    • #21

      Re: Our actual problem..

      Apachemax, could you please explain your comment Trailer box mentality I honestly don't know what that means.
      It would be interesting to know the ages of new rookies coming into the sport over the last few years. Not drivers school participants but people that have actually bought a boat and have made the commitment to race stock or mod outboard. Also not to Changethe subject but Apachemax tell me about your profile picture. Looks like a wicked ride but how in the heck did you do that ?

      Comment


      • Peter24m
        Peter24m commented
        Editing a comment
        That’s a 15ssr, previously BSR. If you want to get in on the action there are a few on this site for sale.

      • Apachemax
        Apachemax commented
        Editing a comment
        The Trailer box mentality in a nut shell is that people dont want to purchase new equipment, or advance with the sport.

        There isnt really a consistant age of new people, at least that i have noticed. Ive seen younger and older drivers alike.

        Perfect opportunity for a tangent. My profile picture is of one of my first races in a 15/B. I have a sequence of pictures somewhere and thats one of them. I actually landed that and kept going.
        Like Pete said, if you want to give that class a try there are quality rigs available. Or if you frequent Michigan races, id let you try/race my rig. Ill even pay the entry fee..

    • #22

      Re: Our actual problem..

      MHRA has rebuilt our club membership with Racer Schools being conducted for the last ten years. Our entries at our four races has steadily grown and in 2016 and 2017 broke 1000 entries running J and Stock and a 20 minute marathon at 3/4 of our races. That's 125 entries per day per race with fields ranging from 8 to elims in almost all classes. The club goal is to add one new racing family per season. We used 3/2 racing when entries were light to bridge the gap until growth happened, but have stopped that policy because elims are becoming common and our race day is to long. The 300 class has really helped in guiding new racers to a common class. However, I do not believe it should be novice only. Cost controlled and competitively balanced are the key. I can teach someone to drive and improve their skills on their own timeline (new racers seem to accept that). I can not teach someone how to compete with Pater or Holt in CSH. Their 30 years of racing knowledge makes that near impossible for a rookie. Furthermore, we have racing kids like Joel Kiddy who I consider a great driver, but who is starting life and cant spend the $ others can. I believe 300 is a great class to bridge that use case. I do not believe SO needs a Novice only class and I think that we should not limit who can or can not race it. However, I do think you could take out some of the incentive to more veteran drivers to race it. Remove the HOC points for 300. The HOC has become the highest award sought after by the most veteran drivers. Take away the incentive for a veteran to try and get the HOC points for it. Additionally I think it is silly that we set records within this class. It is a sealed motor class with a propeller draw. The weather becomes one of the most influential factors for setting a record. It has not become a big issue yet, but it will determine who does and doesn't get into the HOC as the class grows. Guys that are close will borrow 300 rigs and try to set records. Change the incentives and you will influence the behavior.
      Last edited by CSH12M; 01-11-2018, 08:00 AM.

      Comment


      • CSH12M
        CSH12M commented
        Editing a comment
        Graham, your assessment is spot on. It is a great class, I feel like SO is giving its consumer what it wants and limiting anyone would be counter intuitive. The underlying issue is the same driver has won the CC Nationals and HP titles for the past three years and is an excellent veteran driver. There was a lot of conversation this season regarding why the driver seems to have a speed advantage at times. It is also amplified by the drivers excellent starting and driving. Hence all the discussion around whether this is a good or bad thing for 300H.

      • Graham 18ce
        Graham 18ce commented
        Editing a comment
        So this is a spec, sealed class. random prop draw class.
        I see no issue with putting a trade/claiming clause in the rules. who does it hurt? Motor cost plus hassle cost. As long as there is motors available race ready in a reasonable, next race sort of time frame...
        loser could post the cash, new sealed motor price, plus shipping and a few hundred for hassle and keeping people honest.
        how does this work in Drag car racing...
        Most of us can agree that the top level drivers, especially if they are talented at starting are going to be incredibly hard to beat. So can we leverage this in to more growth, or a novice/expert sub group.
        HRL Inboard type thing for 2.5L
        Novice class until you win or finish in the top 3 in high point, or nationals, etc...then you graduate to the expert class...Is the boat count there for this yet?

      • deeougee
        deeougee commented
        Editing a comment
        Graham I watched this class first hand in region 6. Racing is close, I’ve seen guys win from different lanes, and all different levels of experience. There were 9 different winners in 10 races in 2015? Can’t remember? There is a picture on the MHRA Facebook site of a rookie on the weigh scale at GrassLake? who won the class with the club boat, so anyone can win on any given day! It’s really close to a spec class. Random prop draw every heat. They also run elims to decrease the boat count in the preliminary heats to make it more comfortable for rookies. It’s pretty intense with 12 boats heats. Speeds are right at 60 mph. I’m not sure how this class would shake out over here because we run OSY 400 on the schedule. I haven’t seen a Y321 over here yet but I think one or two people have new ones on the way. If MHRA and TORC could get together you would see boats counts like we had in the 80’s and 90’s, I’m talking all classes. You would see 20 having round 15-20 boats, C close to 30 and if TORC decided to add 300 I could see around 30 boats there too. Don confirmed in a post here what I suspected all along with veteran drivers going to the class, everyone is tired of keeping up with the blueprinting and all the testing in 20 and C. TJ does the engine sealing for the class in our area which I believe adds $600 to the cost of the engine.
        Last edited by deeougee; 01-15-2018, 07:27 AM.

    • #23

      Re: Our actual problem..

      For the Go Pro Topic, I am sure all of your motorsports safety research, and education surpasses that of Bob Wartinger...
      Dylan Runne

      Comment


      • #24

        Re: Our actual problem..

        Dean is right on the money with everything he said above and what he hasn't said. I had the privilege to talk to him about APBA, promotions, the 300 class, the J classes, etc... early this winter and he has AMAZING ideas! Ideas I agree with across the board. I really hope he decides to run for APBA president at some point and implements his ideas. If he's willing to share them on this forum I think a lot of you would appreciate his thoughts. He covered everything from J, Stock, Mod, Pro, Inboard, etc... Very forward thinking! Thanks for the talk Dean!
        Joe Silvestri
        CSH/500MH

        Dominic Silvestri
        JH/JR

        Comment


        • #25

          Re: Our actual problem..

          With the hundreds of racing videos on Youtube currently, are we really still debating the Go Pro helmet issue? Seriously? Mounted on the boat, motor still gives the impression of being in the cockpit. There's no lack of great video, whether from the boat or from the shore. Stop beating that dead horse.

          Comment


          • dpdeck
            dpdeck commented
            Editing a comment
            If you want to get the drivers view without using the gopro on helmet,buy a pair of glasses with hd camera in bridge.Pivot head makes them and are 1080do and costs at$200

        • #26

          Re: Our actual problem..

          Are sealed 300ss engines inspected and determined to be at the nominal spec, or can a blue printed engine that meets the class specs but is not nominal be sealed?
          John Adams



          Comment


          • GrandpaRacer
            GrandpaRacer commented
            Editing a comment
            Dean, if the same guys get the inside lane at the start, it’s the Driver. If guys always get to the 1st turn first, it’s the Motor.
            Last edited by GrandpaRacer; 01-12-2018, 06:51 AM.

          • Big Don
            Big Don commented
            Editing a comment
            Unless we are being lied too, which I believe we are not...Which, I would be extremely disappointed if we were. Terry has won the last 3 years with 3 different engines. Yes, Terry is a good driver and gets good starts, but he is not banging starts on the inside all the time. Many believe its the boat.

          • CSH12M
            CSH12M commented
            Editing a comment
            That is why I would favor a rule to eliminate any dominate piece of equipment, including a boat. Just disqualify it from the class. This also would eliminate ANY incentive to try and build a trick boat. As the rules are now, you can run a fairly small boat. If we were serious I would build a 35 inch wide B size boat with a rocker bottom and a lot of lift. Lets get in front of the issue before it becomes one. I like the idea of disqualifying a boat more than disqualifying a driver.

        • #27

          Re: Our actual problem..

          LMAO,LMAO

          Comment


          • #28

            Re: Our actual problem..

            Was there a post on here about making a rig illegal if it is determined that it has a big advantage over the rest of the field , and making the class an engine claiming class ?

            Comment


            • CSH12M
              CSH12M commented
              Editing a comment
              Jeff it is in the comments above, but you have to expand the selection to read it. Here is what I wrote, this is my unsolicited opinion only.
              12M


              Everyone is eligible, just not 300H The HOC is the highest and hardest achievement that can be earned within the category. If you want to earn that honor you can, but you have to do it through another class. It is not even appropriate for a new racer to consider HOC for a few years, so just take it out of play. Additionally, it is very rare for HOC to get in on the merit of one class only and 300H will become a VERY tempting way for top guns in the sport to try and gain HOC points. I personally think if you take HOC out of play you will really change some of the behavior and incentive for veterans to race it for the wrong reasons. I like this idea much more than trying to write rules defining who can or cant race it.

              I also agree the class needs definition. I wrote one and submitted it when it was first started, but it was never adopted. My definition is: 300H is a cost controlled and competitively balanced class that exists to offer maximum competition with minimum time and cost.

              I would also add a rule right after that definition that would read as follows: Based on the class definition any 300H boat, motor or propeller that is determined to have a significant competitive advantage within the class may be permanently disqualified from competing within it. I would give the SORC the ability to make that determination based on a vote requiring 90% consensus of the full SORC at the annual meeting (or something similar) This would reduce any incentive for someone to try and gain competitive advantage through boat design or a possible hot motor.

          • #29

            Re: Our actual problem..

            A simple question, just as a point of measurement, how many motors have been sealed.

            Comment


            • #30

              Re: Our actual problem..

              Dale,
              I think it is over 60 motors sealed (TJ would know actual number)...and growing. Very good to see for racing!

              Comment

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