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  • #16

    Re: A Different Agenda

    I don't disagree that we all need to do better. Just not sure if revamping APBA is the answer.
    Doc Miller gets $5K for NBRA races. I know he works his butt off to do it, but let's start by asking him how they do it. We can learn from that to get better without feeling the need to start over.
    We also have Terry Hicks who helps promote the heck out of our Rock Falls, IL race. He does a great job getting sponsors, promoting the race, and even free dinners.
    We all need to work to raise the bar, but should be willing to put in some work ourselves.
    racer4s, and like this.

    Comment


    • #17

      Re: A Different Agenda

      the big question is....................do WE want this to be a "participation sport" or a "spectator sport".......................I "personally" don't receive any gratification from having a ton of spectators...............if we want this a "spectator or promotional" sport, then the dynamics will dramatically change..............I guarantee that!!
      Spectator Sports all try to have something the spectator can relate to somehow. They associate with a city's Sports team like the Packers, or the brand of Nascar car or truck racing, or even the Company who's logo is plastered all over the vehicle. H1 does this with their floating billboards too. To get the spectators interest they have to relate some how, like we support "our team" in the Olympics. Motorcross cleverly has a special color for each brand, Honda fans cheer for the red ones,etc. How can we get them to relate to our little boats? They are too small to be Bill Boards, the motors are completely unfamiliar except for maybe D and J class. Even the Tahatsu and the Mercury 15, while recognizable they are not the motors the spectator can go buy (Not 4 cycle). Maybe UIM is doing it effectively by creating National teams, I'm too far removed to know if it is working. But without something that makes people want to go cheer for their team, we will never be a spectator sport. Our friends come to races only because they know us, otherwise they stay home.
      Last edited by GrandpaRacer; 12-08-2017, 11:39 AM.



      Comment


      • #18

        Re: A Different Agenda

        Jeff Williams also gets $5k tow money for Kittanning. And yes, he and Mary work their butts off to get it. And the racers need to willing to support those sponsors with $$$. There has always been a guess of what a local race brings to the local economy of around 25-50K. More for the bigger or longer races. We really need to tell local merchants that "we are here for the races" so they know where the extra bump is coming from. Helps sponsorship and also with the local government on getting access to the water. If we don't spend money in town, what is the incentive for them to shut down the water for us.
        Brian 10s

        Comment


        • Big Don
          Big Don commented
          Editing a comment
          Brain once again I agree. We know not everyone will say, "I'm here with the races" so we should also tell our contacts with the city or event, tell your local business to watch for people with wrist bands on. They are with the races so you will know they are spending money.

          Everyone should wear their race shirts when the go out also. (hopefully not their wet, stinky, greasy one) We need to let them know we support their towns.

          We used to pack lunches, dinner stuff, etc. but figured out that we need to support those that are supporting us. So we try and buy as much as possible in towns that we race in.

      • #19

        Re: A Different Agenda

        Hereís my two cents worth. Letís take drag racing for example. Thereís the Big Show with Top Fuel,Funny Car,Alcohol Cars,Prostock etc., which is basically dying on the vine in many ways. Participants either hitch up with the ever narrowing selection of big dollar teams, or, never make the show because the cost and technology and man power to be apart of the program is far beyond the reality of any average race programs bandwidth. These teams have been petting the sponsors fur the right direction for years and have a cyclical relationship. The NHRA has groomed the Big Show and sponsors alike and has been quite diligent at making sure that they get ther $hare along the way by getting memberships through newspaper subscriptions and then hitting spectators fairly heavy at the ticket booth and then chanelling merch sales through Sport Services to ensure that they get their chunk. ProStock in particular has been having a rough go of things lately because what the hell does ProStock and the manufacturers have in common any more? Auto makers are receding, sponsors are slipping away, and race teams are drying up. The nitro and alcohol ranks will be ok for awhile, because itís an awesome freak show spectacle.
        Personally, I lost interest in the Big Show about 20years ago. And I was a racer and more importantly an announcer throughout the NW for many years(still am if you include my one or two dates a year)!
        What draws my attention is the races that
        either celebrates ďhow it used to be doneĒ nostalgia or a ďbig buckĒ bracket race. When it comes to nostalgia nitro, there is a healthy manufacturing of aftermarket blocks and heads,etc, so teams donít feel like they are blowing up unobtanium but setting up rules accordingly to make the category interesting and fair concerning weight or aerodynamics, Keeping things simple like yesteryear and follow the recipe that worked back then. One of the biggest pieces to the puzzles is to have the spectators identify with the racer or car. Once connected, **** near attached for life!
        I guess my point is, that back in the days, in Southern California, you could go to a drag strip on a Saturday and there could be 50 top fuel cars. And because of the amount of drag strips at the time and the amount of cars running around, there may or may not be spectators to watch, but the teams that were there watched and friends of those teams would hang out and so on. Ground swell, grass roots, participant involved, pure, affordable, identifiable, tangible.
        The S.E. Gasser Assoc. packs every single drag strip they hit, and have a long 9month season to boot. The recipe? The way it was minus some safety and reliability. In particular, most everyone runs a Jericho four speed because itís near indestructible and with an sfi flywheel and clutch, so we are not crippling drivers or impaling onlookers.
        A relatively wide scope of categories based on cubic inch versus weight, straight axles and fabrications like they used to be, power plants like they were.
        Itís becoming apparent that I could babble for days about not much.....I must be an announcer!
        You guys had mentioned an old timers class of sorts. Yes! I like the sounds of that. Or how about nostalgia. Itís just for fun until the numbers grow. How to make it more tangible? With some of the newer technologies like 3D printing and maybe some manufacturing connections to China, I see no reason that a complete Merc Quickie setup or an aftermarket facsimile couldnít be available to a racer for under a grand and be bullet proof and get whatever cheap 2cyl or 4cyl fishing motor thatís been collecting dust or thrown to the side into play. Boats would need to be period correct, whether itís an old boat or made new. Itís the celebration of internal combustion engine on water and the craftsmen that make and pilot these beasts. Personally, I couldnít afford to handle the annual cost in props for a front runner stocker, but making some honey out of horse****, thatís more my style, and itís more of what I identify with.
        In yesteryear, there were those racers that had Quincy Loopers, but the majority of what made the sport was the 10-15 year old KG7ís.
        Iím sure that I could edit this, Iím sure there are errors. And I could condense it or hone my focus and intent. Itís just my two cents from off to the side.

        Comment


        • #20

          Re: A Different Agenda

          the big question is....................do WE want this to be a "participation sport" or a "spectator sport".......................I "personally" don't receive any gratification from having a ton of spectators...............if we want this a "spectator or promotional" sport, then the dynamics will dramatically change..............I guarantee that!!

          ​PS: eliminating classes or motors will hurt us..................don't do it.................
          Daren,

          Good points.... I didnít look at it that way.
          sigpic

          Dean F. Hobart

          Comment


          • #21

            Re: A Different Agenda

            Well people this sport(hobby) does not have any money.

            Comment


            • #22

              Re: A Different Agenda

              I am not talking about overhauling APBA. I said nothing about NASCAR, or television. I do not suggest that we try to promote 'our' (outboard) circuit to spectators.

              I suggest that APBA hire one full time person. This lady, our Sanctioneer, would be responsible for organizing 8-12 races in major markets around the country. (Valleyfield draws over 100,000 people. That equals tons of money. Valleyfield is not San Diego. It is not Detroit.) She would work directly with our member-elected BOD, President, and Category Chairmen to design and promote these races. These races would feature Unlimiteds, as our biggest, baddest class (sad, only like 9 left.... maybe they could use some growth too. Take a look at the current drivers and you will see plenty of familiar faces......maybe the big boys would be glad to have the grassroots grow). In between Unlimited heats all other categories would field a class. Whatever class is best represented in the area or most suitable. These do not even have to be points races. They could even be staged. What matters is putting on a show. We can make money and find new racers all at once. Then, APBA can turn around and lower sanction and insurance fees across the board so that our racing can be affordable. It is a simple approach; make money on a few races to pay for the rest. It works for HRL on the larger scale and for probably everyone of our local clubs on a smaller scale.

              Look, I agree, hard work is necessary. But everyone is working really hard. They are all doing their best and they are all getting burned out. There aren't enough of us left to keep shouldering the entire burden of both time and money. There is too much money out there to be had and our club volunteers just do not have the time or resources to go around and get it. Not unless they are retired or similar. Something has to give. Something has to change.

              This isn't the same conversation. The only ones having the same conversation are the near-sighted, negative Nancies and their non-stop naysaying. Every time someone has an idea to try to bring life back to our sport is gets shot down. I ask the naysayers, Where has this gotten us? Who are we going to race with if no one ever finds out who we are?
              Last edited by ryan_4z; 12-08-2017, 07:49 PM.
              Ryan Runne
              9-H
              Wacusee Speedboats
              ryan.runne.4@gmail.com

              "Imagination is more important than knowledge"--Albert Einstein

              These days, I find it easier to look up to my youngers than my elders.

              Comment


              • Dr. Thunder
                Dr. Thunder commented
                Editing a comment
                Ryan. I like how you see things ... but explain this statement "That equals tons of money" ...

            • #23

              Re: A Different Agenda

              I like the idea itself, but let me ask this: Let's assume this big show can be put together. Let's say we have Unlimiteds, and a bunch of other classes, including us. X number of dollars are going to be involved (both expenses and incomes). How would you divide up this income amongst the classes? Surely it's a fair bit more expensive to haul an unlimited to a river, fuel it and run it. A lot more at stake for them too if they break something, and probably even less interest in doing that if there's no points. Would the numbers work out to everyone's benefit? In particular, would our categories take in enough to actually be able to lower all the costs you are talking about for an entire race season?

              Not trying to be a naysayer, but just want to be sure all the angles are considered or that we're realistic with the numbers, because at the end of the day, it really is all about the $$$.
              Dane Lance
              700-P
              CSH/500Mod

              Comment


              • ryan_4z
                ryan_4z commented
                Editing a comment
                I would make this the Unlimited circuit. These would be their big races. For us, nothing. They have their accolades and, I would think, some money to race for. The idea is, if we all work together, maybe we have something worth showing. And we can all reap the benefits. (Too John Lennon for you guys?) I don't know all the numbers, I only know, even if it turned into a break even situation, at least the sport as a whole gets in front of eyes.

              • ryan_4z
                ryan_4z commented
                Editing a comment
                It's like when the glee club holds a bake sale to they can make it to regionals. We put on a show for money and we can go dick around on our glass lakes later all we want. Out of the public eye, the way we like it.

              • ryan_4z
                ryan_4z commented
                Editing a comment
                APBA Outboarders pepper not only the BOD, but also, historically and presently, top UIM positions, and are, historically and presently, often very successful when they move on to other categories such as OPC, Inboards, and Unlimiteds. We may race in the backwoods of America, but we are still a breeding ground for some of the greatest racers to hit the water. Our ranks have won 24 hrs of Rouen, set more records than anybody else, dominated worldwide F1 tunnelboat racing and American Unlimited racing, it goes on. Race against Billy Allen every weekend in CSH? He gets podiums in the OSY Worlds like its going out of style.

            • #24

              Re: A Different Agenda

              Or, maybe we are doomed because Americans would rather drink sh!tty beer and watch somebody else race on Sunday than get off their fat @$$ and do something cool for themselves.
              Ryan Runne
              9-H
              Wacusee Speedboats
              ryan.runne.4@gmail.com

              "Imagination is more important than knowledge"--Albert Einstein

              These days, I find it easier to look up to my youngers than my elders.

              Comment


              • Ram4x4
                Ram4x4 commented
                Editing a comment
                I never drink sh!tty beer. ;-P

            • #25

              Re: A Different Agenda

              And I just want to say one more thing. Because, (I am drunk!)...

              There is no room in a progressive debate for negativity, unproductive criticism or finger pointing. Opposition? Yes! Different Ideas? Yes! Passion? Heart? Vigor? Most Absolutely! But negativity and finger pointing are unproductive and, worse, divisive. If I am guilty of these sins, forgive me friends.

              The Soul of Truth is God.---Johnny Cash
              Last edited by ryan_4z; 12-08-2017, 09:27 PM.
              Ryan Runne
              9-H
              Wacusee Speedboats
              ryan.runne.4@gmail.com

              "Imagination is more important than knowledge"--Albert Einstein

              These days, I find it easier to look up to my youngers than my elders.

              Comment


              • hshawwpba
                hshawwpba commented
                Editing a comment
                Some people cant handle the facts of issues and consider comments of facts that are made to be "negativity" but the fact is boat racing is a dieing sport and it is not due to anything other than there are less and less motor heads in the world today than 20 years ago. There are to many other things for the young and adults to do at a related or same cost to get their speed sensation.
                There are a few areas of the country that have some good numbers but overall the numbers continue to decline.
                So keep drinking the cheap beer and remember the good old days!!!

              • Ram4x4
                Ram4x4 commented
                Editing a comment
                I don't discount that as a potential detractor. But it certainly isn't the only one. I refuse to believe driver numbers are declining solely because people are more interested in other things. I'm sure there are others, like visibility; do people even know this level of the sport exists? I can answer that. There's a good chance they don't. Why? Because I am an example. I even grew up in an area where the Unlimiteds used to run nearly every year (40+ years ago) and never knew about SO and MO until 3 years ago when TRORA was doing one of their boat shows at my local mall. People just don't know about us.

                I think there are plenty of motorheads out there, certainly many that would love to race something, but racing is generally thought of as a rich man's game. Many want to, but just as many don't think they can afford it. I think equipment price is one of our assets as a racing sport. Even cost of ownership is relatively cheap. The only area where it hurts a little is in the traveling you have to do to race (me personally, I like it, it's a chance to go somewhere different and see new things). Other motorsports, like karts, or dirt track, oval car, etc have a local track where everyone goes every weekend. Sure they can go to other tracks, but they don't have to. We have to travel to where the race is and that cost, along with lodging, gas, food does detract a little, but I think the savings in equipment and maintenance make up for it.

                I think we just need a good public awareness campaign more than anything. We also need to be very upfront with interested people about the costs involved. Actually, when I do get the chance to talk with people about it, they are usually very surprised by how cheap a rig can be purchased for. They typically (just like I did) assume its thousands more than it is. I think this is why the driver school is working out well for the clubs hosting them. Not only is the sport relatively cheap to get into, the $50 "try before you buy" chance goes a long way to convincing people that the organization is sincere, it is real, it really is fun and exciting, and more importantly, it is affordable.

            • #26

              Re: A Different Agenda

              Be careful comparing this to any other kind of racing. We have been told many times there is no comparison. Nothing in in any other form of Motor sports applies here

              Comment


              • #27

                Re: A Different Agenda

                Au contraire Mike! We have a lot of similarities. We have racing vehicles, we have engines and parts necessary to make them go, we have protective gear, we have organizational bodies, we have rules, et al. The specific dynamics of driving our vehicles are different, sure. Where we drive them is different, yes. The science and tech to make them go fast has some shared and some unique characteristics. For example, aerodynamics plays a role, just as it does for any fast moving vehicle. Props, on the other hand, are unique to us, just as tires are to cars, and so on. In a more general sense, anything with an engine is all about making them go faster within the constraints of the rules for each class/category.

                I suggest that our similarities lie more in the organizational and management aspect than anywhere else, but we certainly do have a lot from a racing perspective as a whole.


                Dane Lance
                700-P
                CSH/500Mod

                Comment


                • GrandpaRacer
                  GrandpaRacer commented
                  Editing a comment
                  Another difference is our venue usually is a lake side park or resort with no facilities for a crowd. No grand stand, restrooms, beer garden, big parking lot etc. Miami Marine stadium is probably the only exception (I think I read that is re-opening). Our local H1 race has to pay to bring all those things in and set it up which I am sure is expensive. That race draws big crowds 200-300,000. The Blue Angles show helps for sure.

              • #28

                Re: A Different Agenda

                Every single year, thousands of fans sit on the banks of the Indian, Cheboygan and Crooked Rivers. They anchor their boats around the mouths of said rivers.
                They anchor their boats all around Burt, Mullett and Crooked Lakes. All to watch around 80 to 99 crazy guys and gals run roll-up runabouts in classes A through D, and inflatables too.
                A lot more fun to watch than three laps of three or four boats chasing one slightly faster boat, apparently! The operating club makes money, enough to buy equipment when needed, and enough to hold next years race, that people travel from all over the country, (and even other countries) to attend.

                Comment


                • #29

                  Re: A Different Agenda

                  Maybe we can start by letting us put go pros back on our helmets, the videos on you tube were very entertaining and helpful in promoting the sport, The theory of the go pro snapping our necks is a crock! maybe the APBA can get some cooler looking and cheaper priced tee shirts for us to buy and proudly wear, the APBA store really does not offer anything cool, looks more like golf stuff! Look at motocross,drag race,sprint car and drag boat shirts, very cool!
                  Lighten up on the snell dates for helmets, its BS that a perfectly looking helmet will no longer be used because of the snell date and so we have to spend hundreds on a new one, meanwhile boats that are duct taped together are overlooked!


                  These may be a few small things but it could sure help out.

                  Comment


                  • dil/viller
                    dil/viller commented
                    Editing a comment
                    I agree with the go-pro thing [ if a neck injury was concern, I would think neck movement protection would be looked at. and also the helmet thing [ a unnecessary cost burden] and a foolish rule. if the helmet was good previous year what proof is there it's not good now? as long as it is not damaged.

                  • Ram4x4
                    Ram4x4 commented
                    Editing a comment
                    I agree on the go-pro. The mount will snap long before your neck will, or at the very least the camera will fold back.

                    As for the helmets, I understand the concern and I agree that perhaps extending the useful time period beyond the Snell rating by a year or two, maybe three would help alleviate the expense, but you have to have some sort of standardized cut off time frame.

                • #30

                  Re: A Different Agenda

                  I know absolutely nothing about modern computer gaming, but evidently it has become so popular that the best players can make a living at it, and that indoor arenas can be filled with spectators watching these pros playing the games. When a young guy can play a virtual boat racing vid-game, at far less cost than real boat racing, and can do it at home, and can do it all day and night, . . . well, virtual "reality" still seems to you and me to be a poor substitute for the genuine article, but there it is!!

                  Working with keyboards is what the new generations grow up with and are good at, and we tend to like to do what we are good at. In my youth (Fifties, early-Sixties), a kid could buy a worn out car for twenty-five to fifty bucks. Those cars were utterly simple and straightforward by comparison to cars of the last 35-40 years, and a kid could teach himself auto mechanics as he got the various systems working well enough to take his ride out on the road. Today cars are so danged complicated that I can't even work on them (or don't want to, anyway), and are utterly unsuitable for a teen-ager to learn on. The result, as Howard Shaw states, is that the gear-heads are disappearing while the computer nerds are thriving.

                  So is there any hope for outboard racing? Maybe not quite as we've known it. Maybe we have to think a lot farther out of the box than is comfortable to those who like outboard racing as it has been.

                  I have an idea about this, one which has attracted no interest at all so far, but I'll re-state it, maybe with some additional tweaks. Unfortunately my laptop went berserk on me, so I'm doing this at the library, and I am about to time-out for the day. So I'll post my humble suggestion another day (sorry, no choice).



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