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Big Changes to BSR May Be Happening!

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  • #31

    Re: Big Changes to BSR May Be Happening!

    Don't be intimidated by a roll up. It's not that hard!

    There is a learning curve. The timing and body position is different and you have to get a feel for the boat. When I say feel, you will be one with it. You wear a small roll up boat like a good pair of jeans.

    Remember this, unlike a CSR, your 200 #'s of body weight in a BSR is about 40 pounds more than the weight of the boat and motor combined. You drive it where a CSR can sometimes drives you.

    Tim
    Peter24m likes this.
    Tim Weber

    Comment


    • #32

      Re: Big Changes to BSR May Be Happening!

      The first time I ran BSR was so long ago that it was called B Utility and my motor was a KG-7. The last time I ran was so long ago that I ran a 20H. I loved the class. I also ran a BRR with an Alcohol burning Hot Rod. Loved that class too. Now I only drive ever so often and then in the larger Pro runabout classes. My daughter runs a 175 hydro, her daughter, my granddaughter, runs a 125 runabout. I have a grandson that is a driver in waiting. I wish I could add a new Sidewinder and a BSR, either a roll-up or flat turner (prefer a side fin). But a new VRP or Rossi is about the same amount of money. And. . . . . .



      Comment


      • #33

        Re: Big Changes to BSR May Be Happening!

        For about 20 years BSR has been in the 20/30 area for drivers, BSH maybe a little more than BSR. Yamato classes have kept their numbers about the same for the last 20 years around 100, pretty consistent. I wish I had numbers back in the 70’s & 80’s by class, just to see trends. Dana do you have them back that far?

        I think we can agree the B classes have struggled for a long time. The big question is why? Here is my take, could be wrong, if I am I will admit it. I hate really being negative and not doing what I can to promote every class we have. I don’t like airing negativity for maybe a new guy to see. Don’t want them to get scared and not join us.

        You have different types of people willing to run Hot Rod/Sidewinder vs guys that want to run Yamato’s. I’ll use my own self as an example. I know others are in the same thought process, but I won’t speak for them for this post.

        First, I like the classes, I like watching both BSR and BSH. BSR has been my favorite class to watch over the years. But there is no way I was ever buying a Hot Rod. Trust me, I have thought about it, thought about getting a A MOD, but then I remind myself. I watched guys put rods through their engines, I watched guys being towed in because the wires at the coils were breaking from the vibrations, watched cranks break…etc. I hate to not finish, I’m sure many of you have seen my melt downs when I screw up or do something self-induced to not finish. If a Yamato was being towed in it was usually because of lack of water. Maybe the occasional, I forgot to tighten my gas cap and it fell off and all the gas dumped out, I left the vent closed, forgot to open the fuel petcock… You don’t see rods through the side, you didn’t see broke cranks. I was scared as h#ll of owning one of those for those reasons.

        We run on a budget, always have, I just could not see myself having to deal with all of that over the years. So I started racing Yamato 80’s in 79/80… I stopped racing because we were starting a family and them darn things just coming (I was a slow learner J ). Pretty soon racing was not in the budget, I knew in a few years they would be old enough to race and I wanted my kids to race. Don & I talked about his boys running going to Yamato’s back in 92/93, for those same reasons I did in the 80’s, hoping we could probably get the Yamato running fast again. Besides I was tired of the Pavlick’s winning back then. Fast forward to Donny in I think 2001, I knew we were going to stay with the Yamato’s for the same reason again. I wanted something that I knew, that at the most, all I have to do is maybe adjust the carb on any given weekend, depending on where we were racing. I’m not an engine guy, I don’t like to tinker, etc., I just want to work hard at winning, I want to go test and not have to worry about all the other stuff it appeared to me you have to do with Hot Rods/Sidewinders. Maybe that is an unfair assumption about Sidewinders because I know there are guys like the Runne’s that never have issues, nor have to do much to their engines. Like I said in another post, I’m spoiled with Yamato’s and I’ll be honest if they were not so dependable…I don’t know if I would still be racing. I want simplicity and to keep within my budget.
        Harold8 likes this.
        "Ask anyone, I have no friends. I do have some people that put up with me and mostly because they like the rest of my family"

        Don Allen

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        • #34

          Re: Big Changes to BSR May Be Happening!

          I started running BSR in 2014, with an old Austin Runabout and a "conservatively built" hot rod. As a new racer in region 3, the only way I could get BSR time, was if the Runne trailer pulled up. For the most part, I was getting placed into 25ssr to get a ride. 57 or so MPH isn't fun behind 6 to 10 CSR rigs (oops i meant 25ssr's). I ran BSR until my trustworthy Hot Rod let go its connecting rod bolt (real shocker from a 50 year old engine).

          It was still a difficult sell to get me to commit to the side fin ASR. I have absolutely no regrets! The 15 SW has been very reliable, and most importantly, I get to race locally with at least 5 other boats.

          To get me back into BSR, I'd need local participation. If I show up to region 3 races this year and see a half dozen local BSR's at every race, I will certainly start saving up to add the class and join the band wagon. The ride in a roll up is certainly fun, but what i really enjoyed about the class was how much more aggressive everyone drives. With that being said, I will continue to enjoy going to races and having a half dozen ASR's going into turn one.

          Ed Pajus
          Tim Sidor, chuck w and 2 others like this.

          Comment


          • Matt Dagostino
            Matt Dagostino commented
            Editing a comment
            So Ed.............would you be in favor of allowing side fins in BSR? Would you like to see both side fins and roll up hulls together in the class? Or have roll up's only in BSR? We are exploring ways to grow the B Classes.

          • Tugboated
            Tugboated commented
            Editing a comment
            If side fins were allowed in BSR, I wouldn't have any interest in the class. It would just become a second 25ssr class at that point. Side fins and roll ups would coexist in that class about the same way they do in 25ssr. You get a few guys that think that they can out drive a side fin boat, but the roll ups can't carry the RPMs through the turns like a side fin.

          • Matt Dagostino
            Matt Dagostino commented
            Editing a comment
            Thanks Ed for the feedback.........matt.

        • #35

          Re: Big Changes to BSR May Be Happening!

          Don,

          It is the not doing much to the engines that makes them run well. I can tell you that 100 % of the time I have had problems with my motors in the last 2-3 years those problems have been self created. From what I can tell, this pretty much the common trend with any recent 20S mishaps. By and large, Sidewinder buyers seem to be happy with their product. We pretty much all seem to be chanting their support. If I had the money to drop I'd put one on order today.
          Ryan Runne
          9-H
          Wacusee Speedboats
          ryan.runne.4@gmail.com

          "Imagination is more important than knowledge"--Albert Einstein

          These days, I find it easier to look up to my youngers than my elders.

          Comment


          • #36

            Re: Big Changes to BSR May Be Happening!

            So....... remove the side fin from JR& AR so that the drivers are ready for BR, like it used to be 😁

            Comment


            • #37

              Re: Big Changes to BSR May Be Happening!

              Big Don asked about some old participation stats earlier. Only thing I have that goes way back is from 1991.

              JR- 48
              ASR-121
              20ci BSR- 7
              CSR- 81
              DSR- 13
              15ssR (current BSR)- 50
              25ssR- 38
              JH- 50
              ASH- 138
              20ci BSH- 32
              CSH- 152
              DSH- 64
              15ssH (current BSH) - 59
              20ssH- 112
              25ssH- 65

              Comment


              • #38

                Re: Big Changes to BSR May Be Happening!

                I would be tempted to add another runabout to my trailer if the weight was raised a bit. Just saying.
                Shawn Breisacher

                Comment


                • ryanbrew57s
                  ryanbrew57s commented
                  Editing a comment
                  Shawn, What is keeping you from getting into 25? it has a higher weight than B does, 395 with a Mercury. Just curious?

              • #39

                Re: Big Changes to BSR May Be Happening!

                What is the average weight of a roll up BSR rig ?

                Comment


                • ryanbrew57s
                  ryanbrew57s commented
                  Editing a comment
                  BSR Weight is 360

                • dwhitford
                  dwhitford commented
                  Editing a comment
                  In 2013 I built a 1956-design Hal Kelly Foo-Ling runabout with not-the-lightest plywood. Rigged, it weighs 125#. With the 47# Champ Hot Rod of 1955, it would weigh 172#. With the Green Hornet Merc of 1955-56 it would weigh 200#. With the Conversion Merc, it would be 15-20 pounds heavier, which is why BU drivers gave up on Foo-Ling for handling problems and sought other runabout designs.

                  With a 165-175# driver in the late 1950s, or early 1960s -- with a light-weight Gentex Jacket and a Bell open-face helmet -- BSR was just about perfect. The weight rule was right on!

                  Then kids got bigger, we got more cautious, safety gear got heavier, and so on.

                  I think that a moderate increase in the weight rule might be OK . . . I hate to think as much as 400# because that will so much compromise the skinnier younger drivers coming up, especially because we now know how to build much lighter boats.
                  Last edited by dwhitford; 12-05-2017, 06:22 PM.

              • #40

                Re: Big Changes to BSR May Be Happening!

                Side fin on a BSR...why? I was introduced to this sport by people who are roll up drivers in BSR and just recently moved to a side fin in ASR to stay competitive of which goes against how I was brought into the sport.

                As time passed, on I had to dump out a **** ton of cash to be competitive in the class. So with BSR being the only roll-up class left, there still is an amount driving skill required to win the race and that is something YOU CANNOT BUY! Allowing a side fin will open the door for more injuries and wrecks every weekend, as a BSR rig with a Sidewinder Engine and side fin will be upside down more that right side up on the race course. In order to prepare drivers for BSR, we should go in the opposite direction and eliminate side fins from ASR to allow the natural progression from ASR to BSR.

                To grow this class we need to promote roll-up driving more in our new racer school programs and give new racers the choice of what type of driver they want to be.

                18-M
                Last edited by Jbon00141; 12-05-2017, 01:24 PM.

                Comment


                • pav225
                  pav225 commented
                  Editing a comment
                  Why would you have more injuries or wrecks w a side fin? They seem to make other classes turn smoother. Just curious.

                • Jbon00141
                  Jbon00141 commented
                  Editing a comment
                  My thought is that younger side fin drivers from smaller classes (AXR, ASR) will think they can handle a BSR....when in fact that it's a small light boat with a lot of power and will be hard to handle for someone thinking it's like an ASR...when in reality it IS a handful!

              • #41

                Re: Big Changes to BSR May Be Happening!

                BSR weight is 360.
                Seems like most guys are in the 165-185 weight range that run the class. Driver weight determines how much you want your boat to weigh.

                Comment


                • #42

                  Re: Big Changes to BSR May Be Happening!

                  Side fins are a great asset in the bigger classes (25SSR, CSR, DSR & most mod & pro classes) In the smaller classes I'd like to see just bottom fins. I think you end up with more versatile and astute drivers.

                  Comment


                  • #43

                    Re: Big Changes to BSR May Be Happening!

                    Even if the three runabouts that are for sale are bought, this class still remains regional, not national. If the BSR members really want growth, they need a solution that would draw from the two coasts.

                    Someone mentioned that BSR could be described as a small runabout with power: add the 25xs (power on a small boat) to BSR, get rid of the Yamato 25ssr and let people drive in CSR at a lighter weight with a restrictor as a second/third option with the exact rules that are currently used; 25ssh rolls into BSH as well.

                    The 25xs motors are still out there, many on the coasts, where they can be pulled out of the basement and go for a, now BSR ride, making it a national class, creating excitement and growth potential.

                    Roll-up only or whatever, existing BSR guys will decide on that, and you can see how that vote would go.

                    I’d love to bench my stupid, big Yamato 25ssr, for a fun 25xs/BSR ride – last time I rolled up was in JSH!
                    http://vitalire.com/

                    Comment


                    • ryan_4z
                      ryan_4z commented
                      Editing a comment
                      John, If you and two friends bought them there would be four in your region. That sounds like at least the start of a class to me! The Merc idea is not a bad one but we would have to do a lot of parity shuffling... not necessarily a problem. But we would end up with a B class closer to C speeds. (Again, doesn't sound like a problem to me.) Truth is we NEED some viable plan to reintroduce the classes nationally. As you allude, it will not just happen on it's own.
                      Last edited by ryan_4z; 12-05-2017, 08:51 PM.

                    • guedo499
                      guedo499 commented
                      Editing a comment
                      So Ryan, here’s the thing with the possibility of traditional BSR at a NW race - we just don’t have the extra time to run a three boat heat; like a budget, we need to take away before we can add
                      I went through this exercise already, but with a completely new ASH program. Bought a new SW, Boat and made props. I’ve had a great experience with the equipment, but still we only have 4/5 real ASHs on the west coast and maybe two ASRs. A has more potential to grow on the west coast than the Bs as currently touted - just an honest observation.

                    • ryan_4z
                      ryan_4z commented
                      Editing a comment
                      I dig that John. I think your input is of great value because: you have expressed interest in the class, you live in a region where B stock will need to make a huge hump to return, and you have always been unbiased in supporting all motor manufacturers. I think maybe the Merc 25 solution is better than the Yamato solution because of the compatibility in the runabout. An old, restricted, bottom fin boat would be a whole lot more compatible with a Sidewinder in performance than, say, Nuch. And it would be more compatible in racing than, say, a Yamato 80. There is going to have to be some foundation upon which the 20S can build in the four corners because a class of Bs will not mushroom overnight without it. John's testimonial here is, I think, very telling.

                  • #44

                    Re: Big Changes to BSR May Be Happening!

                    What about this? Just food for thought. I am not sure what I think about anything anymore. (Pavlick has given me a religious awakening.)

                    What if we allowed side-fins again, as it always was before. But what if we brought back the old deck dimension rules to prevent strict hydrobouts. And added Joe's bottom width dimension to achieve the same end but with more equitable result.
                    Ryan Runne
                    9-H
                    Wacusee Speedboats
                    ryan.runne.4@gmail.com

                    "Imagination is more important than knowledge"--Albert Einstein

                    These days, I find it easier to look up to my youngers than my elders.

                    Comment


                    • #45

                      Re: Big Changes to BSR May Be Happening!

                      I would think the Yamato 80 would be more compatible than the Merc. And keep it a roll up class. I understand the purpose of wanting to add the side fin to BSR, but I think the uniqueness of the roll up is it's most appealing factor. If we all promoted the fact that rolling up a BSR is not as hard as people say it is, more people would be interested in the class. It's all about the image we give it. Why is it that people that run the class say it's not that difficult and the most fun ride they have, and people that never even tried it define it as too hard to drive?

                      If the B classes were supported and even subsidized by the SORC and APBA like the 300 class was, it would grow. There has been so much negativity devoted to the besmirching of the Sidewinders (some of it earned) over the years it's amazing they are still in the business. Let's find a way to improve the situation instead of resisting.

                      ​All we have now and for the future are Yamato, Sidewinder & Tohatsu. We need all of them to succeed and grow.

                      Comment


                      • ryan_4z
                        ryan_4z commented
                        Editing a comment
                        In the runabout the Merc would be more compatible. It would work on many current boats and the old 25 Merc restricted rollers were not so much faster than a current BSR as a 25ssH would be compared to a BSH. The parity would come easier in the runabout class. Not to mention, a lot of the guys who still run the Mercs run, or prefer to run, bank boats.

                        In the hydroplane, no question. The Yamato 80 and Sidewinder 20S could have great parity. It even says on the Sidewinder web page that the 20S compares to the Yamato 80.
                        Last edited by ryan_4z; 12-06-2017, 10:03 PM.

                      • pav225
                        pav225 commented
                        Editing a comment
                        Thoughts on approaching the Historical Society to buy a BSH or BSR rig?
                        I think it worked well to get 300ssH started in some Regions. Maybe a good opportunity to kick start B.

                      • ryan_4z
                        ryan_4z commented
                        Editing a comment
                        I will build the Historical Society a boat.... I think that is a great idea!
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