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The Silly Season

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  • #61

    Re: The Silly Season

    If you have drivers that pull that kind of crap, then it is up to the referee's at your races to get these guys under control. If it is a recurring problem there are a number of ways to handle it. Yellow cards, red cards or unsportsmanlike conduct.

    Rules without the willingness to enforce them are worthless. This can only be fixed, locally. The rule is not the problem. And changing the rule is not the solution. Make your officials (including turn judges) accountable. Apply peer pressure, but settle it on land.

    A few months ago I offered to help referee at Moses Lk. next year. I was thanked for the offer but told SOA had it handled. The offer is still available if you need help.
    Last edited by csh-2z; 11-30-2017, 07:11 PM.

    Comment


    • hshawwpba
      hshawwpba commented
      Editing a comment
      Yellow and red cards are a joke when given out to drivers at the races they simply appeal them and based on who it is getting the cards they are not supported by the commissions and therefore are a waste of the referees time!
      There should be no appeal process for yellow or red cards! Remember if you ask anyone in jail they will tell you they are innocent!!!
      Enforcement of rules would be a great thing if they were no appeal process that allows for non enforcement!

  • #62

    Re: The Silly Season

    The lead driver must have two boat lengths, nose to nose, and I as a driver feel d@mn good if I get that. More that enough room to do what you have to do. That EXTRA boat length is built in so that the driver on the inside knows if she is not clearly there then she better get out. As a driver, my number one priority in every heat is to safely bring my craft around the course and back to the pits. In order to acheive this I must not drive my boat into situations I cannot drive out of. As Matt and Dad say, all you can really do is glance over the inside shoulder. If you are coming up the inside, you can see the lead driver the whole way. You know if they looked or not. And, unless you are stupid, you know if they are about to hack you off.
    Ryan Runne
    9-H
    Wacusee Speedboats
    ryan.runne.4@gmail.com

    "Imagination is more important than knowledge"--Albert Einstein

    These days, I find it easier to look up to my youngers than my elders.

    Comment


    • #63

      Re: The Silly Season

      Maybe the rule should be changed. Too lenient on inside charging drivers. Cockpit to Cockpit!
      Ryan Runne
      9-H
      Wacusee Speedboats
      ryan.runne.4@gmail.com

      "Imagination is more important than knowledge"--Albert Einstein

      These days, I find it easier to look up to my youngers than my elders.

      Comment


      • Matt Dagostino
        Matt Dagostino commented
        Editing a comment
        I have agreed with the cockpit to cockpit rule forever! The PRO's use it and it works! It puts the pressure on the trailing boat to do the right thing and keeps the lead boat looking forward as they should be doing.....

    • #64

      Re: The Silly Season

      I agree we need to enforce the rules perhaps better but this one rule being only one boat length allows an unsafe chop that is currently legal. If the rule were two or three boat lengths or a rooster tail, there would be a lot less chopping. And if a chop happened at a more reasonable distance there would be a lot less damage and risk to the guy being chopped. The race would be safer, shorter and more fun for all involved.
      John Adams



      Comment


      • ryan_4z
        ryan_4z commented
        Editing a comment
        Maybe it is not the circumstance that is unsafe. Maybe it is the drivers. The fact is our races are boring already. This would make them so much more boring we might actually start having a suicide problem in the pits.

      • Ram4x4
        Ram4x4 commented
        Editing a comment
        Boring???????????

        Wow, maybe you've been at it too long then?

    • #65

      Re: The Silly Season

      Opinions differ on the chop rule but I don’t think they differ on the safety of being chopped off at one boat length. It is not a safe maneuver! This is currently legal in Stock before the gun, on the run to the first turn, in the turns and in the straights(not legal between the exit pin and the start where lane changing is not legal). We all know it is not a safe maneuver but it is still legal to do it. The boat ahead by 1 boat length can just cut you off and ruin your race, your day and your weekend. Why should the rules allow this? If a boat is faster there is no reason to chop. So if you are tired of being chopped off with a legal maneuver at 1 boat length let your Commissioner know! If you are tired of having your stuff wrecked and being placed in a dangerous situation let your Commissioner know! If you want to race the whole weekend and have more fun let your Commissioner know. If you think being chopped at 1 boat length space is unsafe let your Commissioner know! This is the only way YOU as a racer can get this changed.
      John Adams



      Comment


      • GrandpaRacer
        GrandpaRacer commented
        Editing a comment
        Smitty, It has been one boat length for the last 40 years, but I do not know when it started. In the early days props were deep and there was little rooster tail. Maybe that was why 1 boat was considered safe.

      • CSR4C
        CSR4C commented
        Editing a comment
        The one boat length came some time after '74-'75. I remember Fred Miller describing an overlap at the driver's meeting held at the downtown Dayton theater. Fred said 1 inch is enough , we called it Miller's inch!

      • csh-2z
        csh-2z commented
        Editing a comment
        RULE 17 • BEARING AWAY
        1. A boat shall not bear out of her course so as to hinder another in passing to starboard or port

    • #66

      Re: The Silly Season

      Cockpit to cockpit is the rule used in all other categories. This shifts the decision making rule more towards the overtaking boat than just the lead boat. How can we realistically expect a lead driver, with all the spray to look forward, side to side, and behind at all times? If someone closes within one boat length after the turn has started, the lead boat should be looking ahead, especially if they are not in first place because it is in the turns that boats most likely go over. I have barely avoided boats and driver which were ejected due to mishap ahead of me. I imagine they appreciated I wasn't looking behind at that time (2nd to 3rd pin).

      Comment


      • Big Don
        Big Don commented
        Editing a comment
        Hmmmm, Paul I have always been against the cockpit to cockpit, but the way you said it in your post has me thinking...

    • #67

      Re: The Silly Season

      Last year, Paul, I proposed a bow to stern rule for overlap for the same reason used to justify cockpit to cockpit. My reasoning was to limit to a minimum, the amount of time a lead driver has to look behind him. It is also much more obvious when an overlap is established. It puts more of the responsibility on the overtaking inside boat.

      Comment


      • #68

        Re: The Silly Season

        I could use some clarity on this. Does 'cockpit to cockpit' mean that I can start on the very outside, and as long as no one is in front of me, I can legally aim for the entrance pin at turn 1?

        Comment


        • #69

          Re: The Silly Season

          Pav, I am not 100% sure of your question. I can tell you, it works in all other categories. If I understand what you are saying, if you are on the outside, and you have anyone on your inside cockpit to cockpit (btw - most use the judgement rule if you can see them next to you, give them a lane), you have to leave a lane. If they are behind, you have the right to take the lane. The decision the inside boat, who might be behind, has to decide for themselves what to do rather than the lead boat. Do I risk trying to squeeze through or do I slow down and yield the lane. Drivers can see someone on the inside or outside through the turn. You can't necessarily see them behind you through the whole turn, especially when in the middle of the turn. Btw, if I am ahead and involved in an incident, I don't what to get run over by someone behind me saying "sorry dude, I was looking behind me to make sure I remained at least one boat length ahead." Again, our current rule shifts most of the overlap decision to the lead boat. Such a decision through an entire turn is nearly impossible and dangerous to be looking for. The real issue, as previously mentioned, isn't entering the start of a turn as much as closing the gap once the turn has begun. I have seen many cases were the lead boat was easily one boat ahead entering the turn and the trailing boat never lets off the throttle, forcing the overlap after the first buoy. At a minimum, the one boat length should only be applied only to the entrance buoy IMHO. For the rest of the turn, look ahead and side to side...not behind.

          Comment


          • #70

            Re: The Silly Season

            Legally, someone could start in lane 12 and saw everyone off on the way to the first turn? As long as their cockpit was at least in line with the other cockpits, it is considered legal. Correct?

            Knowing the turn judges are inside the course, and based on angle of viewing, the outside boat could probably even be back a few feet and it would appear as cockpit to cockpit from the turn judges perspective.

            A chop is never an easy call. Probably not enough get called, and some maybe shouldn't. I think John's idea was to help improve the safety of the sport and keep from having more broken equipment. I have fixed a ton of OPC boats in the past. Most of the crashes occurred in the corners where they allow cockpit to cockpit... I believe they went to cockpit to cockpit after the introduction of capsules, because the capsule blocked your side vision quite a bit.

            If we adopt cockpit to cockpit, the outside boat can aim for pin 1, or even the last pin in the turn, if they chose. Regardless of how many boats are inside him, this would be perfectly legal, correct? I'm sure it would tick off the 11 drivers inside of him, but legally, he could do this. Probably something to consider.

            Comment


            • ryan_4z
              ryan_4z commented
              Editing a comment
              This is incorrect. The driver must have the overlap of each driver inside her as she crosses through each lane. It is inaccurate to treat the whole racecourse as one scenario. Too much time elapses for this analysis. Once this hypothetical lead boat changes direction the hypothetical following boats would advance on the position of the lead boat much more quickly. A boat at 6-8-12 lanes inside would have to be a considerable distance back for the outside boat to get there in time to cut them off. A distance too great to be judged by either party in terms of 'boat lengths lead.' Overlap, as always is determined when the lead boat arcs in front of the trailing boat, and at that moment only. Either that move was legal or not. This is the only way to evaluate an overlap and the only time it is necessary to do so. A boat cannot have overlap on a field, only on the one boat to his immediate inside. This is the same way the current rule works as well.

          • #71

            Re: The Silly Season

            There's nothing wrong with current rule.
            we don't want those overlap rules that pro and opc have which leads to LANE racing. Only way you can really pass is on outside in a turn with that type of overlap rule.
            turn judges just need to make more calls

            Comment


            • #72

              Re: The Silly Season

              Pav, no. If they are on your inside, the rule means you leave a lane. No one is sawing off any other drivers in the first turn as a result of this rule, otherwise all the other race categories would change the rule. It works. No matter what the rule is, drivers can saw someone off which should be called by turn judges.

              With regard to the frequency of incidences I think that we should really look at the data. I raced an OPC for many years and saw fewer incidents than in stock outboard. Most of these were never result of an overlap issue.
              Last edited by PittmanRacing; 12-02-2017, 07:32 AM.

              Comment


              • #73

                Re: The Silly Season

                Pav, no. If they are on your inside, the rule means you leave a lane. No one is sawing off any other drivers in the first turn as a result of this rule, otherwise all the other race categories would change the rule. It works. No matter what the rule is, drivers can saw someone off which should be called by turn judges.

                With regard to the frequency of incidences I think that we should really look at the data. I raced an OPC for many years and saw fewer incidents than in stock outboard. Most of these were never result of an overlap issue.


                'Tis The Season'..............just remember this is just a Hydroracer chat forum and no consideration or conversation is currently taking place with the SORC on this racing rule. It is interesting to read all the different thoughts and ideas. It is also cool that often time over 6000 folks view a topic!! That tells me the silent majority is paying attention although they don't often comment unless something outrageous pops up. To see Mitch Meyer or Dominic DiFebo chime in is very cool. With the volume of traffic Hydroracer generates, it really is the best social media site in the world to connect with boat racers!............
                Last edited by Matt Dagostino; 12-02-2017, 07:57 AM.

                Comment


                • squirrelboydeluxe
                  squirrelboydeluxe commented
                  Editing a comment
                  I would love to meet Mr. DiFebo. I have one of their old 30H motors here that I restored. I bought it from George Price. I have another one that belonged to Del Snyder

              • #74

                Re: The Silly Season

                More than anything use what's in your head! Know who you are racing against and know what you and your equipment are capable of! The lead boat will always dictate the way around the course. Bad things usually happen in turns when people make the wrong move. If the trailing boat is trying to make a move on the inside and slides out through the tail of the lead boat you have little control of where you are going and may wind up in front of traffic in the outside lanes. There's subtle ways of sending the message to the guy behind you without slamming the door like squeezing them in down the straight to tell them, "hey there's not going to be any room for you when we get down to the corner". 20SSH is they only class I've seen where drivers get a pre-heat warning just before the start of a heat from the race director that "hey the throttle works both ways, use your head out there!" Questionable moves seem to happen in the Yamato classes a lot more than in other classes. As speeds go up it seems more respect is given to your competitor. You don't see these moves in DSH and DSR. That's a small group of guys going really fast where things happen fast. There is little room for error. Just because the rules say you can do it doesn't mean that it is "safe" to "slam the door" with a boat length. We all have things to do on Monday so think about it.

                Comment


                • ryan_4z
                  ryan_4z commented
                  Editing a comment
                  Well said.

                • Ram4x4
                  Ram4x4 commented
                  Editing a comment
                  Is DSH or DSR a fair comparison to the Yamato classes? I mean, kinda hard to be doing a lot of chopping or 6+ boat packs in a turn when there's only 3 boats in the race....

              • #75

                Re: The Silly Season

                Deeougee you are correct but each club has those two or three drivers that will slam the door any chance any where they can because “it is legal”: Little thought goes into ‘is it wise or safe’. If the over lap is extended it will be much more difficult for the lead boat to know, so they will be motivated to hold their lane and make safe arc. This is racing not dodge’em. The fast guys are the one getting through the turn safely and it’s the slower ones that are getting slammed. Those are the ones we need to keep in the sport to have a sport. Sawing them off serves no purpose and hurts the Sport. I asked before and no one answered “What possible good for the Sport does permitting a dangerous maneuver provide? ” Do you want your 10 year old J kid or 16 year old A driver to get blown over in the first turn with 10 boats behind them just because it was legal? If we want to grow the Sport we should keep it sporty and make it safer and keep it fun.
                Last edited by GrandpaRacer; 12-02-2017, 10:22 AM.



                Comment


                • GrandpaRacer
                  GrandpaRacer commented
                  Editing a comment
                  I like to think my family team is included in the ‘Fast guys’ and we try to play it safe and avoid saw jobs. My grandson did it once last year and I had a good talk with him. He told me he did it cuz he saw some older guys do the lane 12 to the entrance pin maneuver!

                • Harold8
                  Harold8 commented
                  Editing a comment
                  Fortunately or unfortunately, the younger drivers DO watch the older more experienced drivers to learn how things are done. Its like that in every sport, so we need to have things done properly on the race course so the younger drivers get things right!!
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