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The Silly Season

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  • #16

    Re: The Silly Season

    Don't we all think part of our growth problem is lack of equipment?

    How are you ever going to attract anyone when you say, well, you have to call this guy in England and when he has engines and they are not all spoken for, you'll get one. Or call this guy in Michigan, but I know he does not have any right now. Or call this guy over on the east coast and he'll put you on the list...

    Until we have engines available, that you can buy right now, we are going to struggle to grow, or attract many. This goes for boats also. We do not make it easy to get equipment.

    I'm as impatient as they come, I know I sure would not wait, I'd go find something else.

    "Ask anyone, I have no friends. I do have some people that put up with me and mostly because they like the rest of my family"

    Don Allen

    Comment


    • Flatiron
      Flatiron commented
      Editing a comment
      When you she'll out the 5K for a sidewinder your getting a brand new engine. Are Yamato are used well used

    • ryan_4z
      ryan_4z commented
      Editing a comment
      Wacusee Speedboats will accept any number of orders for new BSRs for $1800 for boats order this weekend with deposit checks arriving within two weeks.

    • dwhitford
      dwhitford commented
      Editing a comment
      I built a new (1956-vintage) Foo-Ling B-Stock runabout in 2014. The build time (part-time) was late March thru late July (4 months +). My materials cost -- epoxy, varnish, and so on -- was well more than $1400. If Ryan will sell a new runabout for $1800, that's a bargain!
      Last edited by dwhitford; 11-25-2017, 06:20 PM.

  • #17

    Re: The Silly Season

    Alright, I don't think side-fins and restrictors are the problem. I also don't think they are the solution. The 20ssH idea is not stand alone but part a package of ideas. But I think we can probably all agree that there are bigger fish to fry. I motion to table that issue. The more glaring issue is obviously 3-4 boat races. The clubs would probably combine these classes but these races still count for national points. Perhaps we need to raise our standard for points.

    Additionally, I think that the Mod, Pro and J categories need talking about also. Every year the Stockers hash out their issues in raging fashion. Yet, the majority of the 3-4 boat races we see with regularity are the Mod and Pro classes. I believe we need unification to succeed and this means analyzing the situation of all the small outboard categories as one. If the categories could all agree to combine or eliminate say 3 classes each then the whole of outboard racing becomes less convoluted. And when I say eliminate I really mean combine. I don't think there has never been an engine that was legal in APBA Stock Outboard going back to the green-top Mercs that doesn't still have a place to run. (Except the Crescent.) Nobody is ever sent packing. The Mod division was created for out of production motors and obsoleted motors. I believe that the Stock and Pro divisions should race only production racing ouboards and other motors should be raced in Mod.

    If a class does not have some sort of niche appeal that makes it distinct from another class then maybe those classes should be one. If a class can't draw half a field then maybe it should be combined. The current assortment of equipment could be easily organized so that none of the classes were very weak and all the equipment would still be viable and competitive. It only takes some imagination and willingness to change.
    Last edited by ryan_4z; 11-22-2017, 05:44 PM.
    Ryan Runne
    9-H
    Wacusee Speedboats
    ryan.runne.4@gmail.com

    "Imagination is more important than knowledge"--Albert Einstein

    These days, I find it easier to look up to my youngers than my elders.

    Comment


    • 94H
      94H commented
      Editing a comment
      Ryan
      I see your now in Indiana. Show up at our Indiana Outboard races next year and you'll see more than three mod boats in our heats. Let's not change class rules based on regional preferences.

      Where are you located in Indiana. I'm guessing Wawasee.

      Bob koschka- indianapolis

  • #18

    Re: The Silly Season

    This highlights one of our big issues...the constant change in directions and talking big changes every off season.
    Stability will help the sport. Case in point, I got a text last night from a new driver in our area. He was telling me that his son also plans to race 20ssH next year and they are looking to get his daughter in AXH. This is AWESOME news!!
    They got started because they were able to find inexpensive rigs, went to our Drivers School, and many people on our Club offer to help. They live near a lake and take the boat out a few nights a week over the summer. They are a cool bunch of people and super fun to have in racing. They are really hooked!!
    He texted again this morning asking about 20ssH and if I thought the class was going to be cut. Talking about cutting our largest classes does NOTHING to help the sport. Here we have 3 new drivers, who are completely hooked, and now worried about having their class cut. It makes no sense.

    Chuck, hope you don't mind me sharing.

    Comment


    • #19

      Re: The Silly Season

      20SSH isn't going anywhere in the foreseeable future. But, if there were a plan to transition 20SSH into CSH and BSH (motor dependent) what difference does it make? 20SSH is only a name. Is there any reason Chuck couldn't run one of those classes with the same equipment?
      Again, 20SSH is not going anywhere any time soon, but all options for improvement should be on the table if we truly want to implement positive change.

      Comment


      • pav225
        pav225 commented
        Editing a comment
        We need to quit trying to make B grow by sacrificing 20ssH. That does not have the best interest of Stock outboard in mind. Focus on growing the B class without cannibalizing 20ssH. You will kill Stock if 20ssH is pushed out..."pushed out" also means replacing the current 20ssH class, with BSH.
        Rename BSH, 20ssH and ask 20ssH drivers to spend $12K on new motor, boat, and props. You will lose them, and Stock won't recover...and you'll never sell motors.
        Let's hear some ideas on how to actually grow B as it is. If there are no ideas to grow it, then kill the class.

      • dwhitford
        dwhitford commented
        Editing a comment
        While I'm quite out of touch with current engine speeds and technology, I got my start in BU in 1960 right after the 20H Conversion engines began to (finally!) become competitive again against the Hot Rods, which were holding sway in the middle 1950s against the unconverted Merc 20H ''Green Hornets''.

        Based on what I read on this Forum and what I've seen at races I attend, I think it would be viable (and equitable!) to combine 20ssH and BSH with little or no big rule changes.

        That combo could be at least one small step in healing the splintering of the Stock Outboard Division: strengthen the ailing ol' BSH and BSR classes by allying them (folding them into) the strong 20SS class. Name the result what you will. For old times sake, I favor retaining the old B-Stock naming convention. And you could now have a 20SSR class: a revived BSR (aka BU) class, strong as ever!

    • #20

      Re: The Silly Season

      FYI..............a new 50hp fishing motor costs $6800............so the $7000 for the Tohatsu D racing motor is actually a good deal and it is BRAND NEW, not used or rebuilt (like the Yamatos). Sorry folks, but new motors are not cheap anymore..............

      ​PS: does anyone actually know what a NEW Yamato costs?? Wonder what the Japanese circuit racers pay for their motors ??
      Daren

      ​DSH/750ccmh/850ccmh

      Team Darneille


      sigpic

      Comment


      • ryan_4z
        ryan_4z commented
        Editing a comment
        And if we don't adjust our mentality to modern inflation the Yamato nirvana will lull us all into an outboard racing coma.

      • Big Don
        Big Don commented
        Editing a comment
        The problem is the large majority of our current racers and future racers will not drop that kind of money on an engine. If we want to change the way this sport is heading that is an entirely different conversation. The sport will die while you try to find people willing to spend that kind of money. They are out there but that is not what Stock Outboard is about to a lot of the racers.

        Looking from the outside in, I had a conversation with a friend who races Stock Cars, yes they more expensive. He gets a lot more time on the track, races within an hour every weekend, etc...we know the reason. His comment when I told him what it would take to be competitive in a class (He likes to win). 5500.00 engine, 5000.00 boat, 2000.00 to start with for props, 1500.00 for a trailer. Safety equipment, etc. Told him 15000.00 to 18000.00 depending on how he wants to do it. Told him he could go with an old boat but... He said, I'll stick to race cars.

    • #21

      Re: The Silly Season

      BTW. The only reason there is any discussion at all about 20SSH is because there is an opportunity to strengthen two other classes (CSH)and by moving the Y80 to BSH. The importance of strengthening BSH is due to the fact that aside from Yamato, Sidewinder is the only other viable game in town. We need them, and they need our support to stay in business. I realize they have issues to deal with but they're working hard on it.
      Last edited by csh-2z; 11-23-2017, 12:47 AM.

      Comment


      • Steve Dunn Racing
        Steve Dunn Racing commented
        Editing a comment
        I knew it would finally come out. Thanks for being honest John! Steve 10-Z

    • #22

      Re: The Silly Season

      So 300ssr is a bad ride. It can’t be worse than my Service C which goes 52 ish.

      Com on man

      Tim
      Tim Weber

      Comment


      • dwhitford
        dwhitford commented
        Editing a comment
        Tim, my 1st racing engine (never raced, however) was a Wiseman Service-C Evinrude. Where do I get one now? (Reply sdwhitford at cox dot net)

    • #23

      Re: The Silly Season

      It's clear that these ideas are to help SW. So just be honest about it and quit trying to disguise it as helping Stock. Let's work to help them sell more motors. I'd fully support that. I think we can be a lot more successful working together, than proposing plans that will jam the (120+) 20ssH drivers.

      Comment


      • #24

        Re: The Silly Season

        Ask people to donate materials, hardware, money, or time. Build 3 identical boats at Trolians (I haven't asked Brian) and have boats available for people to race in BSH. Get people to donate old props. Get rigs ready to run...and easy to buy.

        Comment


        • ryan_4z
          ryan_4z commented
          Editing a comment
          In the works....

      • #25

        Re: The Silly Season

        I do support Sidewinder, it will be good for Stock Outboard for them to succeed. It will be bad for Stock Outboard if they fail.That being said, if they can't solve their availability issues soon, we may have to go another direction. Unfortunately, it is difficult to get new Yamato's as well. It is very difficult to grow the sport under these circumstances

        Comment


        • ryan_4z
          ryan_4z commented
          Editing a comment
          Yamatos from the UK will not sustain our whole outboard racing sport in the US for the long term.

        • bmitch1
          bmitch1 commented
          Editing a comment
          We really like our SW15 and one of our drivers got a ride in a SW20 this year and it was everything we had been told (great ride, fun to drive), but I'm struggling to invest that $5,000 when a new family spun a bearing out of their 2017 SW20 during that same race weekend, and broke the next. The two factors the Yamato folks have working for them and against the grand vision is reliability and accessibility... I'm very interested in what the mod guys are doing with the PRD class - the powerhead is the most complicated part of the power package so they're getting an off-the-shelf mass-produced karting product and making the flexibility of choosing an accessible tower from many existing motors, and putting it on a known gearfoot... all for less than $3k. I support growing B-stock and working out the bugs - add the Y80 if you think it will help.

          Otherwise we have to look at the facts - no other mass manufacturer is producing a basic package that appears to integrate efficiently into the current environment. Adapt creatively or go 4-stroke. I do think it's worth watching the reintroduction of fuel-injected 2-strokes being done by KTM... same lightweight, power but meeting emission requirements.
          Last edited by bmitch1; 11-23-2017, 07:52 AM.

        • dwhitford
          dwhitford commented
          Editing a comment
          As a non-invested spectator, I support Sidewinder too. While it's true that the extended Runne family wants the Sidewinder enterprise to succeed, I really believe that the family and Ed Runne in particular has the best interest of boat racing at heart. So they deserve the unqualified racer support that Merc and Champion got in the 1950s

          OK, so a new Sidewinder costs $5K. Have any of you Stock Outboard drivers priced a factory new 15-horse engine -- mass produced at absolutely minimal production costs -- lately? You might come away aghast!

          Or have you looked to see what a competitive PRO racer needs to spend for his engine? OK, you didn't. Which is why you race ''cheap'' stock. Considering what you spend to attend races for a season, the engine cost is a drop in the bucket. Get real! Penny wise is pound foolish! You need not send money to Japan for used hardware in at least some classes when American goods are available.

          From what I know, it appears that the Sidewinder engines are the only true ''stock'' engines available now for racing anyway. While the Yamatos are robust, they are neither new nor truly stock, especially considering the gearfoot contouring, cooling mods, and such other nonsense that the present Stock rules permit.

          So I suggest getting on board with Sidewinder for Stock Outboarding to survive, especially in the ''A'' class, in which Sidewinder is . . .

      • #26

        Re: The Silly Season

        To have spectators , you need 3-5k$. You need someone working on it for 3 months. I don't see that in APBA races.

        Comment


        • #27

          Re: The Silly Season

          After reading all these posts I'm reminded of what Albert Einstein said, " you cannot solve the problem with the same thinking that created it". It is going to take an idea that is so simple no one thinks it will work and make it work. Our future is in our hands, so let's preserve it for a long time.

          Comment


          • #28

            Re: The Silly Season

            In 2018 I would like to address the EPA (Environmental Protection Agency) on reducing the import restrictions. Anyone have any good connections?

            Comment


            • #29

              Re: The Silly Season

              Again, available, affordable, reliable equipment!!! That does not include calling across the pond to get a motor. I had many conversations about this with Nate Forshey when he raced. He couldn't believe how we did things. Especially, argue about the same things for decades! Make a decision and move on! By the way, he's racing BMX with his nephews with sponsorship.

              Outboard racing is a good sport but our operations/business model is all wrong! Especially, for today's youth. How many of them are going to work on their own equipment? Let alone piece and part a motor together to go race. Why do you think 300SSH is so popular with new and existing racers???

              When you get gas at your local gas station what do you see in the back of trucks??? Dirt Bikes, ATV's, etc... Available equipment bought on credit and making cheap monthly payments!

              Why is putting the model 80 in the B class such a bad idea? They are obsolete in 20 yet there are still several out there. Moving the 80 into B rejuvenated the life of that motor and helps the B class. Win win!!! And, if the model 80 guy still wants to run 20 they now can race two classes. More bang for buck!

              If you want a successful outboard model, listen to Dean and Dana as they had it figured out 10 plus years ago by combining stock and mod! The inability to change and grow is why we are here. It's nice as a member to have the ability to help steer the organization but I or we shouldn't be driving it and that is our biggest problem! Who is going to step up, make changes and take on the heat??? Otherwise we are spinning our tires and this will be being discussed again 10 years from now.
              Joe Silvestri
              CSH/500MH

              Comment


              • #30

                Re: The Silly Season

                Here's the kicker when a newbie is considering running CSH and buying a new motor. Oh, by the way your going to have to tear that motor down and blueprint it if you want to make it competitive. What? Really? It's a brand new motor? Technically no.....So add all the cost of machining, parts, etc. to that 3000 or so and now that Yamato 321 is a lot closer in cost to the Sidewinder. Even running 300 SSH your adding 600 to have the engine sealed. So this whole thing about the Yamato being cheap to buy and run is an illusion! Remember SW engine dimensions are controlled by Sidewinder LLC so you won't have to keep up with technical engine rule changes in the future like we do now with the Yamato. Having to get engines and parts from overseas is less than ideal isn't it? Certainly a barrier to growth. There is no Yamato dealer around the corner from you. Sidewinder LLC is the only North American game in town at this point for a new engine. At this point my concern with Sidewinder LLC is that we haven't seen any progression. The website hasn't been updated since the engine launch, lack of promotion, issues with the SW 20, there are concerns at this point. How many of you know about the electric start option for the engines? Where is the parts list? If I'm a potential customer of your product I look at how you run your business and how well you support your product. I think back to the days of the Merc Challenge Series and how Mercury used their engines for promotion and recognition and controlled the stock program where Mercury engines were concerned. I see lots of potential but we can't seem to get out of our own way. The discussion is certainly generating a lot ideas and thoughts on the future and the current situation.
                Last edited by deeougee; 11-23-2017, 07:13 AM.

                Comment


                • Flatiron
                  Flatiron commented
                  Editing a comment
                  I was thinking this Exact thing about Sidewinder as I looked at there Website. I would like to get away from Yamato's but the Sidewinder don't make me feel real comfortable.

                • squirrelboydeluxe
                  squirrelboydeluxe commented
                  Editing a comment
                  deeougee
                  I got to see an elec start assembled on a Sidewinder engine last winter when I was at the factory
                  It looked AWESOME- very compact & well executed
                  I can tell you one thing- it certainly changed my thinking about SW & boat racing in general
                  It made me love SW EVEN MORE because now there would be ONE LESS THING I would need help with at the races (no need for a rope puller)

                  In my racing program, my biggest struggle is NOT HAVING HELP I CAN COUNT ON

                  GO SIDEWINDER GO
                  522-P
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