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Stock Outboard: The Next Generation

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  • Stock Outboard: The Next Generation

    New Class Structure
    Classes: ASR, ASH, BSR, BSH, CSR, CSH, DSH, 300SSH

    ASR and ASH:
    • No change to current class rules
    BSR and BSH:
    • Raise Weight to 385
    • Engine
      • SW 20 No restrictor
      • Yamato 80 (For 3 years before being phased out of the class)
    • BSR is now a side fin class
      • Reasoning: There are about 12 true BSR racers left in the country, besides those 12 no one knows, or wants to know how to roll up a runabout. This class could now be a natural progression step from ASR, just like it was in the 1970's however the difference then was that ASR was a roll up class so it was a natural step into BSR. No one will be able to step from a side fin ASR into a BSR and be competitive. This way of racing has died with a generation, either adapt or let the class die in the next 5 years.
    CSH and CSR
    • No change to current class rules
    DSH
    • No change to current class rules
    300SSH
    • No change to current class rules
    Eliminated Classes:
    25SSH, 25SSR, 20SSH, DSR

    25SSH
    • This class is dead, and has no potential for growth.
      • If you argue this point you are protecting your own interests
    25SSR
    • This class has become another CSR (Similar speed, many of the same drivers)
    • This class had a place when the mercury was a relevant engine... it no longer is
    • The Yamato was introduced to the class to help boat count, it has now taken over the class, thus becoming another CSR which there is no need for
    • Will help CSR Boat Count
    20SSH
    • This has become another CSH (Similar speed, many of the same drivers)
    • The engine of choice in this class is a "C" engine
    • This class had a place when the Yamato 80 was the dominant engine, however, as new engines have been phased in this engine has become irrelevant, thus eliminating the purpose of the class.
    • CSH will now have huge fields at all races, as all 20SSH drivers will pull their restrictor and run CSH
    DSR (Short Course)
    • Do I even really need to explain this one to you?
    Now feel free to pick apart every slight detail, but the overarching principal is classes need to be cut in order to grow.


    ​DR
    Dr. Thunder, bill hoctor and 4 others like this.
    Dylan Runne

  • #2

    Re: Stock Outboard: The Next Generation

    Good thoughts Dylan. With decreasing numbers of participants, fewer more straight-forward class structures make sense. There are a couple of challenges that need to be considered. Some would say for example, "I race 20ss and CSH so I have two classes. If you drop 20SS I onl3y have one class." If that is the case, there are other potential solutions like more laps, more heats (maybe a 3 or 4 heat race). The other challenge is motor availability. We need to make sure....for real....any class we trim down to really has motors available.

    Again, great thoughts!!!

    Comment


    • #3

      Re: Stock Outboard: The Next Generation

      Thanks for posting.

      How would racing grow by eliminating classes?

      Lot's of good stuff Dylan.

      My Suggestions - Raise the DSH weight from 480# to 525# because the math does not work. Most rigs are overweight giving the advantage to lightweight drivers. Why force building high tech/lightweight boats? So, increase the weight and let the underweight drivers add weight like most of the C drivers do. DSH has a better chance of growing by being a "bigger person" class. I wish the engine were less money and the cranks were prepped prior to buying.
      • Boat - 160#,
      • Engine - 140#
      • Most Drivers - 210#
      • ​Gear - 15#
      • ​Total - 525#
      Keep 20SSH (2nd largest APBA class) because it's working, except move the 20 Sidewinder and Yamato 80 into the BSH class.
      Eliminate 25SSH and move the Mercury 25XS engine into BSH class.
      ​Keep 25SSR (2nd largest Stock Outboard Runabout Class), but take restrictors out of Yamato for parity. Mercury engines are faster as proof by the fastest times at the last 2 Nationals and have won 4 of the last 5 Nationals. Level the playing field. Eliminate the Mercury in 3 to 5 years. Don't want to send the Mercury drivers packing...

      ​In the future, I would like to see a faster 2 cylinder class. Maybe call it "High Performance C class". Runabout goes 70mph and Hydro goes 75mph.

      Lee
      Last edited by flatsmoke; 11-20-2017, 02:16 AM.
      bill hoctor, ryanbrew57s and 2 others like this.

      Comment


      • ryanbrew57s
        ryanbrew57s commented
        Editing a comment
        If you remove the Restrictor for the Yamato you will be doing the same thing as the Mercury J did to the OMC and the Sidewinder did to the OMC in ASH and what it did to the Hot Rod in the B class. They will Never stand a chance against a CSR at the current set-up.

      • Racerkyle20
        Racerkyle20 commented
        Editing a comment
        Just a quick note:
        25SSR- The mercury's are not fast (no offense to anyone I promise). Nuch is fast. My 25ssr and your 25ssr have beaten all other mercury's at nationals in the same time frame you mentioned.And if you take the restrictions out of 25 its CSR lite and mercury's definitely won't compete. I'm all for Dylan's changes. We have to do something to make our class structure less confusing to watch.
        Last edited by Racerkyle20; 11-22-2017, 06:21 AM.

    • #4

      Re: Stock Outboard: The Next Generation

      DSH should be increased for those reasons listed above. Most of the older guys are over 200 lbs.
      MTS71R, flatsmoke and Adams52R like this.

      Comment


      • #5

        Re: Stock Outboard: The Next Generation

        Would raise the BSH, BSR weight to 400lbs, allows heavier drivers to compete, set engine height to 1/2". Maybe go to a supercross heat format. Saw this type of format used in OSY 400 this past year. Made things interesting and everyone got 3 heats. The above should be the national format, doesn't mean clubs can't set their own agenda. Lots to talk about at this year's meetings, hopefully we can move forward rather than rehashing the same issues for another 20 years, ie. engine cooling.

        Comment


        • j hydro racer
          j hydro racer commented
          Editing a comment
          As someone who currrently runs bsh, I would need to run 40 pounds of lead in my current rig... out of safety concern that is less than ideal. Would bringing the weight up actually increase participation?

        • deeougee
          deeougee commented
          Editing a comment
          Well where are the current 20 drivers going to gravitate too? Are they going to run B or C? In my case if I run B at 385 I would be 15 to 20 lbs over, in C 30-35 under. There are still a lot of people running the Y80 in region 6. I personally don't like the finger reed 102 and 300 series engines, prefer pyramid reed block engines. I imagine engine cost is going to be a deciding factor for racers also.

      • #6

        Re: Stock Outboard: The Next Generation

        Not trying to protect my engine box or class here but just want to make a point that at nationals this year there were plenty more Mercury's than Yamato engines in 25SSR. Plenty of those were CSR drivers that just wanted another boat ride during the week and to get a feel for the course. In the finals 8 of the boats ran the merc, only 4 were yamatos..... also the 25 class is a good place for future C drivers to learn how to race and handle there boat before they jump into the highly competitive and tough CSR field... if you saw the first turn at lockhaven on Saturday this year you know what I'm talking about. 25 is a much more forgiving class than C, I think we all can agree on that.
        Ryan Brewster 57-S

        Comment


        • #7

          Re: Stock Outboard: The Next Generation

          I think one of the biggest barriers to DSH is cost. When the engine alone is twice the price of an entire C rig (including trailer) it suddenly isn't so attractive.
          Dane Lance
          700-P
          CSH/500Mod

          Comment


          • ryanbrew57s
            ryanbrew57s commented
            Editing a comment
            I agree with you on this Dane, I would love to buy a Tohotsu for marathon racing but 7k is a lot of money. especially when I can buy a Yamato 321 for 3k brand new! And the only place you can run a D currently is at marathon races or nationals for short course.

          • Flatiron
            Flatiron commented
            Editing a comment
            Ryan, That Yamato you are buying is a used engine

        • #8

          Re: Stock Outboard: The Next Generation

          As a race director I'm concerned that you're talking about the possibility of losing the much needed entry fee. Better think about this. When I became a race director I immediately realized the tremendous impact on local clubs finances when nobody shows up. I've been a director for 32 years

          Same thing will happen when you eliminate engines and or classes. We should be careful that the class corrections don't immediately impact the weekend entries. Local clubs will go broke.

          BK

          Comment


          • Racerkyle20
            Racerkyle20 commented
            Editing a comment
            Simple. Add a heat and raise the entry. 3 heat racing is more fun anyway.

        • #9

          Re: Stock Outboard: The Next Generation

          Ah yes, therein lies the problem. How do we get rid of classes, when races need every entry to make it financially.

          This is why we are in the predicament we are in.
          "Ask anyone, I have no friends. I do have some people that put up with me and mostly because they like the rest of my family"

          Don Allen

          Comment


          • CSH12M
            CSH12M commented
            Editing a comment
            Run the classes twice in the same day 3/2

          • pav225
            pav225 commented
            Editing a comment
            Why are we even talking about removing STOCK's 2nd largest class???? If anyone outside this circle read these comments, they would think we are insane to consider messing with our largest classes. A solid growth plan for any business or marketing is "Protect the Core" and pursue growth in other areas. I think a lot of racers would need to rethink racing if, as an organization, we remove our 2nd largest class.

          • Racerkyle20
            Racerkyle20 commented
            Editing a comment
            Run more heats!!!!!! heat structure can be changed. RUN MORE LAPS! More heats/laps, bump up the entry fee! It's not that hard. We can do this!

        • #10

          Re: Stock Outboard: The Next Generation

          Can not Local Clubs Schedule what they want? As long as its approved on the sanction? A new class structure could be just for Championship races, like Nationals and Divisionals.

          Comment


          • Big Don
            Big Don commented
            Editing a comment
            It can, but the argument you hear is, it would not be an APBA class then and not receive APBA points etc. I say, how many are running for APBA points.

        • #11

          Re: Stock Outboard: The Next Generation

          As a first step, could you combine BSH and 25ssH to increase the numbers of boats in each race?
          Are the speeds close enough that with some adjustments, you could get parity?
          - Mike

          Comment


          • Big Don
            Big Don commented
            Editing a comment
            Agree with that combination, but Parity would not be my end goal. Sidewinder should be engine of choice. The Sidewinder should be engine of choice in a class where it can win. Pull it out of 20 if need be, or leave it in there, but it's probably never going to beat a 300 series engine.

            Why would anyone buy one if they can't win with it. Give it the 25 class, call it 25 or rename it. 25H is dead as it is now.

        • #12

          Re: Stock Outboard: The Next Generation

          DSH.... i would be against raising the weight (and i weigh in at 565 ).....adding 20lbs or so to the class is not going to change anything......and the 7k for the motor is reasonable considering how reliable and bullet proof the motor is....its the best investment i ever made in stock......once you buy a D rig, you will never go back to a Yamato rig.....its the best ride in stock outboard ....
          Daren

          ​DSH/750ccmh/850ccmh

          Team Darneille


          sigpic

          Comment


          • flatsmoke
            flatsmoke commented
            Editing a comment
            You are 85 lbs overweight. So, bigger is better?

          • Ram4x4
            Ram4x4 commented
            Editing a comment
            I agree, D is a great ride (I got to drive one that's why I want one), but reliability and all that doesn't make my wallet any fatter.

            Sure, some folks have the money, obviously, but the price is why the C classes dominate. I'm sure a lot of the bigger guys would love to run D, but at the end of the day, like everything else, it boils down to how much it costs.

          • mercguy
            mercguy commented
            Editing a comment
            "all that doesn't make my wallet any fatter."...................what class in boat racing does?????? I know plenty of Yamato racers that spend more money on their Yamatos to make them competitive than I do on my Tohatsu............I would be willing to bet over a 10yr span of running both engines (Tohatsu and Yamato) that the cost is very similar, including the initial expense of buying the engines.............(yes, I have owned Yamatos for lots of years).........

            and yes Lee........BIGGER IS BETER!!!!!!!

        • #13

          Re: Stock Outboard: The Next Generation

          I totally agree with you Dylan!!! I probably would go back to BSH under this overall shake up
          I am totally fed up with multiple classes based on all the same motors with and without restrictors
          It is why I switched to just Mods

          Mike T



          Comment


          • #14

            Re: Stock Outboard: The Next Generation

            Mike T,
            Serious question...Why don't you race BSH now?
            - Mike

            Comment


            • #15

              Re: Stock Outboard: The Next Generation

              Can not Local Clubs Schedule what they want? As long as its approved on the sanction? A new class structure could be just for Championship races, like Nationals and Divisionals.
              Just an idea. How about declaring on the entry form if you are running for National points (which would also be for Hall of Champions points) or Regional points.... But you can't do both. Obviously if someone wins National High point for a certain class, they would also get the Regional High Point for that class. This idea would give the opportunity for another driver to get the Regional award.

              At the Kilo trials, you can declare that you are running for a Regional record for instance.

              Awhile back (actually quite awhile back) we also had a declared Regional Race, that would get you qualified for the next step, the Divisional Race. This was back when we a lot more Racers.

              Anyway, just a thought..... What do you think?
              sigpic

              Dean F. Hobart

              Comment

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