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  • Class Realignment

    Once again we continue to do the circle jerk! Since it was brought up in the Y321 cooling issue topic I figured I would start a separate post on the 20SSH versus CSH debate again so as not to take away from the cooling issue. It has been suggested that the 20SSH boats be slowed down, they are running almost C speeds, in fact some of us are with our Y80's and some with the restricted 302! Now the engine of choice for the 20 class is the Y321 and 302 both 25 ci engines. The 20 class started with the Y80 a 20 ci motor. So if both classes are running the same speeds why do we keep running both classes?! What mph would you want to slow the 20 class to? Restricting the C motor for 20 has never made any sense to me! If I want to go 55-60 I'll run ASH or 300SSH. Everyone keeps trying to fit the square peg into the round hole here! The APBA class structure really needs to be reviewed from top to bottom! What is the plan with the classes moving into the future? Are classes being defined by engine displacement or by speed or by some other factors that I don't know about? This make it up as we go is starting to get frustrating!!! What is the 1,2, 5 and 10 year plan? Having to take a motor out of the box and start modifying it to get it to cool is ridiculous! We've been on that topic now for how long? I've never had an issue cooling a Y80, 102 and 302. Back in the day we use to run the 80 above the bottom of the boat! Here's a novel idea maybe the people who have the cooling issue figured out can share it with everyone else so we can all move on! Now a little experiment has been going on in Ontario (TORC) this year. Some of you know that BSH in Ontario consists of the SW 20 and Hotrod at 1/2" below the bottom and 400lbs (same as APBA 25SSH if you run the SW 20). The Y80 was added to BSH as a probationary engine to the class because of the cost of purchasing a SW 20 right now with the money exchange, try to help boost numbers. Now the feedback on the course has been that the Y80 can hold its own straight up against the SW 20. In fact the 20 driver that competed twice in the class stated that it was easier to compete in B than 20 and could out corner the SW while the SW held an edge in chute speed. This was a stout #2 Y80 (150lbs compression both cylinders) outfit going up against 2 top boats in the class. So think about that one. Maybe the SW 20 should be allowed to compete in 20 at 1/2" and 400lbs? Anyways the current APBA class situation is a mess!

  • #2

    Re: Class Realignment

    Deeougee,

    You bring up some interesting points. Here is my take on this for what it is worth.


    Engine availability and the speeds that classes run are a constantly moving target that makes it very difficult for the SORC to lock in a solid plan that works 5 years from now. Add into that mix some unexpected issues such as cooling on a 321 and you can see how messy this gets.

    One of the reasons that 20SSH and CSH both exist is that there is a 40 lb weight difference between the classes. This gives drivers of differing body weights a choice of classes to run. Being 40 lbs over weight (probably more) in 20SSH is not very appealing nor is adding 40 lbs of lead to a boat. Splitting the difference at 420 lbs and combining the classes is not an option either because we would be taking a class away from drivers who run both. It also does not make sense from a club perspective in that with a combined class clubs loose entry fees for the weekend. Also - and this is counter-intuitive to how most of us like to think about the sport, having multiple classes with the same equipment running about the same speeds is GOOD for the sport in that in a given area one class will trend towards the more serious hard core racers and the other class is more for the sportsman racer who just wants to participate. Throw all of the above into one big class and in two years the sportsmen racers will no longer be racing that class. I've seen it happen here in Region 7 over the years.

    Restricting the C motor to run in the 20 class made all the sense in the world when Y80's were getting difficult to find and yet the 20SSH class was (and is) a very popular class across the country. The answer was simple - don't kill the class, save it with a restricted C engine AND increase the value proposition for a 102/302 owner in that they can now run 2 classes with the same engine and in many cases the same boat.

    Slowing 20SSH down? I do not have an opinion on this, but keep in mind that top end speeds will always slowly creep up over the years and lap times go down? Why? Because there is a segment of racers in our sport who race because they CAN work on their equipment and try to make it run better. While I think a class like 300ssH is very cool and good for the sport, a class like that does not appeal to all of our racers in that it is too limiting to their creativity with boats, set ups, props, etc. With a segment such as this in our sport, the SORC will occasionally be faced with a dilemma of several classes running the same speed. Not the end of the world in my opinion.

    Bill

    PS - the decision to restrict the C engine to run in 20SSH happened WAY before the 300ssH class was ever dreamed up.



    Last edited by Wakefield 2015; 09-14-2017, 06:12 AM.
    mercguy, TPLACE31 and pav225 like this.

    Comment


    • Tunnelman801
      Tunnelman801 commented
      Editing a comment
      Deeougee, I would like your suggestions on how you would slow the future increase in speeds in 20SSH class? William

    • deeougee
      deeougee commented
      Editing a comment
      With the Y80 in the class there is only 1 way to do it and that is to lower the engines. For every 1/2 inch drop in engine depth you lose 2 mph. How much slower do you want to go? It would help with some peoples cooling issues but I personally am not interested in going slower. I've spent a lot of time, effort and $$$ to make HP out of the Y80. I use the Y80 because it will make more HP than the 102 and 300 series motors, reason being the pyramid reed blocks versus finger reeds, they make HP differently.

  • #3

    Re: Class Realignment

    Oversight on my part, forgot about the 40lbs weight difference. I actually fall into this category too. Perhaps it's time to visit the class/participant fee structure also? I'm sure it has been examined also. The decision to allow the C in 20 happened in the late 90's I believe. Would have to look up the history. Status quo is never a good thing for any sport. Especially these days and I understand the challenges we face and that it will be a collective effort moving forward. I'm really curious about how many people are looking to get to the front in any given class. I helped out a guy this summer that has been running for 4-5 years in 20 and C, running mid-pack and within 3 races was running at the front after I shared my information with him. How many of us out there are helping newbies along to make their racing experience more enjoyable and in a timely manner? You can take from the sport but what are you giving back? These people had no idea what it really took to get to the front. I was fortunate when I started out I had 2 mentors who ran up at the front, built there own engines, boats, etc. otherwise I wouldn't have had a clue also.

    Comment


    • #4

      Re: Class Realignment

      I'm glad to hear you are helping others - obviously that is the KEY to keeping the sport going. And perhaps just as important - this driver listened to you! LOL.

      Comment


      • #5

        Re: Class Realignment

        Deeougee,
        Are you guys running the Y80 at 1/2" ? And are you running unrestricted Hot Rods, and SW20s with the BSH size restrictor at 1/2"?
        Maybe the Y80 is a good way to support/grow BSH.
        Thoughts? ?
        squirrelboydeluxe likes this.

        Comment


        • #6

          Re: Class Realignment

          Yes Mike we are running the Y80 at 1/2", unrestricted HR's and SW 20's. The SW 20 is the engine of choice in the class. Everyone is running straight up at 1/2" and 400lbs. I honestly thought the Y80 would get its doors blown off, even if I ran mine, but that's not the case. I would consult with Ross and Rob more on this, especially since Ross has run the Y80 in 20 and now the SW 20 in our B class. The guy running the 20 outfit (Dave Muir using Mark Miskerik's #2 that he purchased off of Elek in the spring) was leading Ross in a heat before over steering in a corner and spinning out collecting Ross too. Feed back from Dave is that he finds it easier to race the guys in B. The eye test has been the 80 is pulling in the corners and the SW on the straights. I didn't witness the heat races so I'm just going on what I was told. To me this makes a lot of sense. Over here it was done out of necessity because of the SW expense right now. I was told at some point there was 1527 Y80's imported into North America, so there are a lot of them out there. It's certainly worth looking at more closely. Try to simplify things more and make it work for everyone.

          Comment


          • #7

            Re: Class Realignment

            Here's something else to think about. How about creating a title series around the SW 15 and 20 engines similar to the Merc Challenge Series? Bring in a sponsor to back the series with some $$$, perhaps some money could be used to subsidize Sidewinder LLC to help lower the cost of the motor for a racer. I was even thinking the money could originate from an unlimited hydroplane series sponsor that could use stock outboard racing as a promotional vehicle for their racing. Since stock is the grassroots of racing and we reach a bigger audience of potential new participants with more races. Now why the SW engine? The specs of the engine are tight and Sidewinder LLC has control over the engine changes, basically spec racing at this point. American company with proper parts and tech support. We have seen some close racing with these engines. Everyone needs to look at the big picture across boat racing in general and where we can support each other and share ideas, technology and costs.

            Comment


            • #8

              Re: Class Realignment

              Deeougee, helping people understand the subtle differences to move up the pack is a great thing for the Sport, that is why I wrote the Beginners Manual. This sport has a long learning curve and classes like Region 10's Novice C and 300ss are great for that. The Yamato 102, 302, 321 has 3 Hydro classes and 2 runabout classes it can run in which is good for Club revenue and we should keep this in mind. I have an idea to add yet another class to this list, I call it Masters C. This is C at 450lbs with a 2 boat length over lap for drivers over 50 yrs old. How many old guys( like me) are there with equipment that would like to race in a more gentlemanly way? As class structure is considered the first thing to do is define the objective and priorities. High on the list should be: natural progression with a drivers age or experience, cost to participate, and Club revenue (not necessarily in this order).
              John Adams
              Last edited by GrandpaRacer; 09-14-2017, 08:44 AM.
              jaremad racing likes this.

              Comment


              • #9

                Re: Class Realignment

                John,
                Your book is EXCELLENT!

                I need to talk to Gueedo about getting copies to pass out in our Region.

                - Mike

                Comment


                • #10

                  Re: Class Realignment

                  Great idea John about the Masters C class. That is exactly what I was alluding to in my comments about the "sportsman" racers. We essentially had that happen on its own to the OSY class here in region 7 a while back. The older, less serious guys stopped running CSH and ran OSY instead. It was really just a second CSH class as the equipment was identical, but it kept a bunch of guys on the water.

                  Personally I would not push this on a National level, but start it at the club level as a special event and see where it goes.

                  Comment


                  • Harold8
                    Harold8 commented
                    Editing a comment
                    I'm all for a masters C class!! Actually an over 60 would work for me, I'm tired of chasing all these young guys!! Hahaha!

                  • Big Don
                    Big Don commented
                    Editing a comment
                    Just what we need another class for Pater to kick everyones ...

                • #11

                  Re: Class Realignment

                  John,

                  Your idea for a Masters C class is a great idea. Would I be able to run it by "Remote Control"???!!!!!
                  sigpic

                  Dean F. Hobart

                  Comment


                  • #12

                    Re: Class Realignment

                    Instead of a Masters class, I think all 50 and over racers should get 3 seconds at the clock :-P
                    bill hoctor, and like this.
                    Dane Lance
                    700-P
                    CSH/500Mod

                    Comment


                    • #13

                      Re: Class Realignment

                      Doggone.
                      No wonder I am getting spit out the back of the pack every weekend
                      I've been running at 3/4 instead of 1/2 because I'm paranoid about overheating.
                      How much speed do you suppose this is costing me?
                      I am running a 102 restricted in 20ssh
                      I also have two 80's but can't get either one to run quite right
                      522-P

                      Comment


                      • deeougee
                        deeougee commented
                        Editing a comment
                        Suggest you switch out to the Y80 for 20 immediately. You want to make at least 150lbs of static compression on each cylinder on a Y80. If you don't have those numbers you need to rering. If you have to rering make sure the piston to wall clearance is a medium .005 total, this amount of clearance is what gives you the most HP. The Y80 will also give you a prop advantage by being geared lower by 1 tooth 14:16 versus 14:15. You can take advantage of a 14 inch pitch prop on the trailing edge with an 80 where as on the 102 and 300 series engines you can't, your stuck at 13. The Y80 has a broader torque curve and can pull any 102 and 300 series prop. Make sure you split the powerhead and lower unit and check the pipe for cracks and make sure the baffle cone hasn't fallen off. You will lose horsepower if you have either condition and will need to correct.
                        Last edited by deeougee; 09-15-2017, 12:00 AM.

                    • #14

                      Re: Class Realignment

                      George, you need to get those 80's fixed. A restricted 102 is the least viable option out there. A restricted 302 can be competitive from what I've seen, but the 102 seems to suffer from the restrictor even more than the 302. I ran my 102 C boat in 20 a few times with the restrictor just to get more seat time and nearly got lapped every race. I just started running in 500mod instead.
                      Dane Lance
                      700-P
                      CSH/500Mod

                      Comment


                      • Flatiron
                        Flatiron commented
                        Editing a comment
                        I told you George we need to fix those 80's

                      • squirrelboydeluxe
                        squirrelboydeluxe commented
                        Editing a comment
                        My only hope is jerry b

                    • #15

                      Re: Class Realignment

                      The problem with any class restructure is... most probably agree that something should be done, but no one wants them to touch their class or classes.

                      I sent this one to Jeff Brewster a month ago. This is a combination of conversations I have had via emails, in person or phone with other racers. Not everyone is willing to post their feelings or thoughts as you can get blasted rather quickly on here. So being a commissioner I feel it is my responsibility to share others thoughts. Plus I donít care if I get blasted.

                      I do think some of these have some merit and should be thought through. As I told Jeff, I do support the 25H one as it was mine as well as others.

                      Comments from others: (I do agree with some of them)
                      Our current class structure is broke. To many classes with very little participation.
                      Most classes are small at the local races and the day last way to long running 3 & 4 boat races.
                      It is boring and not a way to attract sponsors running 4 boats in a heat, nor new drivers or new race sites. How or why would anyone watching 3 boats run around want to get into this sport?
                      They are tired of having to be at the pits by 7AM and racing until after 6PM on most weekends. Then drive home until 1AM or later.
                      In some areas of the country they only push certain classes and with that, some classes will continue to struggle unless we do something. (I like the fact that this is what they do as it does not cause a watered down field of boats)
                      They hate having to be at the Nationals all week to watch weak/small classes. If we are going to be there all week make it exciting with good racing with larger fields with less classes.
                      We need to shrink our class structure. Get rid or combine any class that does not have at least 20 drivers with at least 3 races. This would help stop the throwing my buddy in my rig one day or one weekend to increase numbers.

                      Some actual suggestions I have heard this summer alone of those that I can remember.
                      Get rid of 25H
                      Get rid of 25R
                      Combine 25R & CSR by allowing 25R to run in CSR at the current 25R weights with the Cís.
                      Get rid of 20H
                      Allow 20H to race in CSH at their current 20H weights with the CSH.
                      Get rid of 45 in Stock Outboard
                      Either grow BSR or get rid of it. 20 boats in the Midwest does not make it a national class.
                      Allow Yamato 80ís to run in BSH to try and grow the class. If in 3 years we are not seeing growth get rid of class.
                      Make DSR a Marathon class only
                      Get rid of DSH
                      Make a 300 Runabout class. The sealed class has a lot of merit and we can see the Hydro class is continuing to grow. Letís try it in runabout. Worse case it does not go like the hydro class, at least we can say we tried something to grow the sport.
                      Donít get rid of anything and just make National classes versus local classes. There is no reason to have week-long nationals for classes with less than 20 boats nationally.
                      If we eliminate classes we could we potential do 3 over 2 every weekend for boat time or go to 3 heat racing.
                      (not sure on this statement, in BSOA we donít run most of the classes being suggested to eliminate so our schedule would not get a lot shorter, our issues is we run some MOD/PRO classes also. It would eliminate 20H for sure & 25R sometimes)

                      With all that is said above, whatever we do we need to realize that in most areas of the country we need every entry. Letís just say we did combine 20H & CSH. We now stand to lose entry fees based on the fact that many run both classes. Yes the 80ís could still run with the Bís but those with 300 series are now down to one class. I personally think anyone running both is doing it to race more and it now becomes less attractive to race. So as I see it we have to tread very carefully with any class elimination or combination. If a local club has 10 less entries can the race even stay afloat financially? What would that do to Region 10? I bet it would cost them 20 entries over the weekend.

                      Yes I do support getting rid of some classes but we need to be real careful. I personally (when I was younger) didnít care if I was racing all day long and getting done after 8PM some nights. Had no problem getting home at 2AM and going to work in 3 or 4 hours. BUT, I have also come to realize that my type of personality when it comes to racing, is different than a lot of others. I know that we are the exception like many of you are, but this could be part of our demise if we don't change. We have to change with times and I donít think our type of personality or mentality is the norm anymore. Plus as I get older (and fatter) it does take a toll on me.
                      "Ask anyone, I have no friends. I do have some people that put up with me and mostly because they like the rest of my family"

                      Don Allen

                      Comment


                      • Matt Dagostino
                        Matt Dagostino commented
                        Editing a comment
                        Dean...........not sure my 20ssh driver (Val) would enjoy adding another 45 pounds of lead to race against me in CSH. 20ssh drivers are in many ways different than CSH drivers, especially in weight for many of them. 20ssh and CSH are the two biggest classes in APBA, maybe it is better to pick on the weaker classes to combine and increase boat count..)

                      • Racerkyle20
                        Racerkyle20 commented
                        Editing a comment
                        I've always been for realigning classes. Personally I would like to see us run less classes, with more heats. Why do we need to race with only two heats a day. Why not three or four? Instead of me running four classes (CSH, 20, CSR, 25ssr) at two heats per class, I could run two classes with four heats. Still same amount of heats. If clubs think they'l lose money then charge a little more to recoup the loss of classes. Money for clubs and heats for me racing didn't change.And a far more fun format emerges in larger classes that combined (20 and CSH) with more possible elims and a final every race day.
                        Last edited by Racerkyle20; 09-25-2017, 06:02 AM.

                      • deeougee
                        deeougee commented
                        Editing a comment
                        With more entries per class with realignment you could end up with a format similar to a supercross format where you have qualifying heats and last chance qualifying heats and a final etc. You could definitely get creative with the heat structure to make things more interesting. I don't know why you couldn't adjust the entry fees to reflect the change in class format. If we combine redundancies and increase the number of heats I suspect many people may run just one class and therefore save money on buying another different engine and boat to run another class to pick up more running time. We are doing it now with the yamato being able to run multiple classes with one motor. People could spend the extra money in other areas like more props, etc.
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