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  • 321 heating issues

    With the season coming to a end I'm wondering what the results are with the 321 mods for the cooling issue espeacilly for CSR CSH
    Thanks

  • #2

    Re: 321 heating issues

    I paid closer attention to the boats/setups this year at the races I attended based on the fact that I was not in favor of making a bunch of changes last year. It has become apparent to me that this is an issue for more than I thought. I also learned that many are having issues with their 302's and 102's. I'd assume there are people struggling with their 80's also. I was shocked to see/hear that the utility's (Runabouts ) are having issues also. Talked to several runabout guys at Top O that said their engines were getting hot.

    I see 3 options:

    1. Do nothing (probably not a good idea)
    2. Allow the "Cool Tool" the was proposed last year. I believe we should not put any measurements on it. Buy it and do what you want. Make it easy for our inspectors.
    3. Lower all engines that run Yamatos. My fear is in race conditions how much is enough? I've heard take everything to 1". While that seems crazy, guys are overheating at 3/4 in C already. Is a 1/4 inch enough in race conditions?


    I heard there is a group doing some testing at different heights and will share their data once done. They even propose to tell us what happens to their props at each height so we know what we are up against.

    I know there is a group claiming they will have to rework all their props if we lower everything, that may be if we drastically change the heights.

    What we do know is guys are overheating and it's costing them 100.00's every time they do.
    "Ask anyone, I have no friends. I do have some people that put up with me and mostly because they like the rest of my family"

    Don Allen

    Comment


    • #3

      Re: 321 heating issues

      I agree with Don.

      1. Doing nothing is not an option.

      2. Allow the Cool Tool with no measurements. If you look from in front of the lower unit the cooling hole is on the left... So when the motor is turned for a left hand turn the cooling hole "Disappears". (This was not my observation.)

      3. Changing the height would cause additional propeller expense. And because of item number 2 might not fix the problem anyway. I think the testing that was done with the Cool Tool proved that this fixes the problem.
      sigpic

      Dean F. Hobart

      Comment


      • #4

        Re: 321 heating issues

        To follow Big Don's lead the 4th option (and one our cool team is working on) is to allow MUCH more drilling into the existing water inlet hole to include going around the snout to form a V to allow a direct angle at the propwash in lieu of the side angle now in place. Lee Sutter of the cool team has been working on this and so far the results are positive!! More to come on that in the months to come prior to the National Meeting.

        Val and i have had to put our 321 tower away since it will not cool at 3/4th in 20ssh even with the current drilling that was approved. As Big Don stated many many folks are struggling and 'overheating' 302's along with 321's at 3/4th. The 321 tower in my opinion needs a STEADY stream of cooling water to overcome the new style baffle and very few have figured out how to do this. The 302's are overheating in 20ssh and in CSH many struggle to cool even at 3/4th.

        I am not a big fan of dropping the heights to one inch. While this will help cooling it does not assure it will solve the 321 tower issue. I do think the 20ssh height should be lowered to match CSH at 3/4th to help cooling. I also believe the drilling method suggested MAY solve the problem!

        While the COOL TOOL would be simple and bulletproof, many purist's seem to feel it is some sort of 'contraption' that will cause the demise of Stock Outboard. Several on the SORC suggested the COOL TOOL would lead to radical boat designs and massive tuck. While they possibly could be correct that is a assumption and not a fact. The FACT is the COOL TOOL works to cool all Yamato Products and models.

        If the braintrust on the SORC is concerned about radical tuck and inset boat transoms lets pass a simple rule like in 300ssh limiting tuck and setback.

        That would be my vote! But then again what do i know.......

        Stay Cool and Stay Tuned.

        Matt
        ps..........perhaps the SORC could be pro-active and actually encourage Sutter and others to provide data to a SORC subcommittee lead by a neutral Commissioner like Brian Mitchell who has no agenda! Just sayin
        Last edited by Matt Dagostino; 09-12-2017, 09:31 AM.

        Comment


        • #5

          Re: 321 heating issues

          Let em cool any way they want......the fast guys and gals will still be fast, but the newcomers and less experienced racers wont burn up there motors and get frustrated.....leave the height restriction as it is, then everyone doesnt have to buy new props...
          GrandpaRacer and Matt Dagostino like this.
          Daren

          ​DSH/750ccmh/850ccmh

          Team Darneille


          sigpic

          Comment


          • GrandpaRacer
            GrandpaRacer commented
            Editing a comment
            I would add two restrictions: 1) must cool with lake water and 2) you can not modify the power head in any way in order to cool.

        • #6

          Re: 321 heating issues

          Come on Ram 4x4 , you know you want in on this ! Don't disappoint me !
          Ericwienczak likes this.

          Comment


          • #7

            Re: 321 heating issues


            While the COOL TOOL would be simple and bulletproof, many purist's seem to feel it is some sort of 'contraption' that will cause the demise of Stock Outboard. Several on the SORC suggested the COOL TOOL would lead to radical boat designs and massive tuck. While they possibly could be correct that is a assumption and not a fact. The FACT is the COOL TOOL works to cool all Yamato Products and models.

            Matt I'm no genius and actually pretty dumb at times. Many would way I'm just a dumb @$$, but there is a large group that just would say, he's just an @$$ and it has nothing to do with being dumb ...but, wouldn't the radical designs happen if we do the cool tool or allow the moving of the water pick up hole as you mention?
            "Ask anyone, I have no friends. I do have some people that put up with me and mostly because they like the rest of my family"

            Don Allen

            Comment


            • Matt Dagostino
              Matt Dagostino commented
              Editing a comment
              Big Don...........i am no boatbuilder and you heard the same comments i did at the SORC meeting. That's why i am suggesting forming a SORC Committee lead by Mitchell (or maybe you) to ask those exact questions. A simple tuck-setback rule would eliminate that risk! I am sure you remember the Hemp-Palmquist ASH boat years ago that lead to the current tuck rule in ASH-AXH. The tuck rule kept the boats safe and leveled the playing field. Like you i question if the Cool Tool vs. Open drilling will lead to radical boat designs?? But doesn't it make sense to incorporate a reasonable tuck-setback rule as the 300ssh class did in lieu of waiting for Hemp or Pav to come up with a wild boat design once the Yamato engines are allowed to cool like a real outboard motor??
              Last edited by Matt Dagostino; 09-12-2017, 09:05 AM.

          • #8

            Re: 321 heating issues

            What kind of radical designs are you talking about? Transom angles? I run a boat with 15 degrees now and have seen 22 and everything in between. Another addendum that should be added is no electric water pumps or any pump assist of any kind. This is how the inboards get away with trolling starts. You can thank the Weber brothers for that, DV even won a gold cup using a pump.

            Comment


            • Matt Dagostino
              Matt Dagostino commented
              Editing a comment
              At the SORC National Meeting last year a couple Commissioners raised the point that if the Cool Tool passed and allowed Yamato engines to cool like a real outboard motor that boat builders would inset transoms hence moving the lower unit much closer to the bottom of the boat than is the practice now. In addition you could in theory tuck the engine close to 2 inches to create a 'supertuck' and go much faster. Some argue that the inherent design of the Yamato foot is not conducive to that extreme set up and others warn it may be tried creating a safety issue as the Hemp-Palmquist ASH hull did back in the day. I believe the argument was raised more to scare folks are get the cool tool voted down. But the SORC could be pro-active and incorporate a tuck-setback rule if they elected to move forward with the cool tool or More Drilling if that is indeed a concern. I believe the 300ssh setback rule is 5 inches and i am not sure if they have a max tuck ??? But i think a setback and tuck rule would be a good idea.

              If Sam Hemp reads this he will argue that the Palmquist hull was specially built to handle the inset transom and supertuck. I am sure that was the case but even so that boat was still upside down many times and even a great driver like John had problems driving it less than excellent water conditions from my observation, hence the SORC made a tuck rule to insure the safety of the ASH class drivers!........
              Last edited by Matt Dagostino; 09-12-2017, 09:34 AM.

            • deeougee
              deeougee commented
              Editing a comment
              MUST RESIST!........I don't always speak........but when I do, it's usually DUMB! LMAO!!!!! Sorry just amusing myself here.......thanks for the info Matt.

          • #9

            Re: 321 heating issues

            If people are truly concerned w cooling, allow the Cool Tool and/or drilling to get as much lake water to the motor as you want. Don't allow modifications to the powerhead (water passages) and don't put restrictions on set up. People are already trying radical set-ups, but there is a reason you don't see them placing at the top at Nationals.

            Comment


            • guedo499
              guedo499 commented
              Editing a comment
              Very true.

          • #10

            Re: 321 heating issues

            More drilling/machine work on the tower/snout is NOT the easy/best way to go with this. The process for reaming out the water hole is very time consuming and requires exact precision. Why mess with all that when you could bolt the Cool Tool on in about 1 hour or less?

            But the Cool Tool would absolutely invite people to go radical on boat design/tuck. You'd HAVE to put rules in for that. And now the question becomes...what could be allowable max tuck and set back distance? Certainly now you have CSH and 20ssH tucked in 1/2" and a good bet some guys are even more than that.

            Talk about making inspection even tougher.
            Joe J and Matt Dagostino like this.

            Comment


            • #11

              Re: 321 heating issues

              I completely disagree. All boats and drivers are different, so quit trying to limit what people do. What works on my boat, will not work on yours. Case in point. ..we can cool all day long at 3/4" in CSH. Do you really think my boat would work if I ran your set-up? Probably not.

              Look at the facts...people have tried some radical set ups and they don't work.

              Let's do some testing and look at facts before we randomly implement new rules because we are "afraid something might happen". That kind of behavior drives the membership crazy and costs lots of money.

              Comment


              • #12

                Re: 321 heating issues

                I agree with Mike that set ups/boat/prop combination must be taken into account. Everyone has something different. For example, I had a 20ssH driver tell me that he can run all day long at 1/2". He also mentioned that he was running parallel. Well...he ain't winning any big races...but go ahead and pump at 1/2" because you're not going fast even though you're at max height.
                Point being...what does it take to really go fast and win? It takes running the engine as high as possible without melting it down. That's a combo of height and angle. That's why ASH got crazy years ago.

                Comment


                • #13

                  Re: 321 heating issues

                  Have to ask because running 250 i never payed attention....Was this cool tool approved APBA>OSY?
                  sigpicWayne DiGiacomo

                  Comment


                  • #14

                    Re: 321 heating issues

                    Has there been any testing on a CSR ?

                    Comment


                    • #15

                      Re: 321 heating issues

                      Yes. I don't think there is an issue with the Runabouts. The 321 runs hotter then the 302, however it's manageable.
                      Lee
                      28-R

                      Comment


                      • Big Don
                        Big Don commented
                        Editing a comment
                        I saw several runabouts at Top O that had over heating issues. Maybe on a short course the runabouts are ok, but in marathon my observation is different.
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