US Title Series Jetty Starts

[Dominc24Q]

I was unable to attend the annual US Title Series Meeting last weekend. Was the topic of jetty Starts for UIM classes discussed? If so what was the out come? Personally as a USTS member and a driver in 125H I think we are regressing by not adopting the international standards. The motors are being built and developed around that style of racing and the US teams are spending thousands or dollars when motors break because of the milling process. Over the last 5 years the majority of accidents happen on the way to or in the first turn. Speeds are increasing and the sport is becoming extremely dangerous with 12 350 hydros doing over 100 mph all going into the first turn together. And last but not least how can we compete on an international level when we don't start off the beach/jetty but once ever 3 years. Oh and Show, what better show then watching 10-20 boats starting from the beach!

What is your opinion on this situation? And can we as a USTS organization put it to a member vote to race 0125, 0250, 0350 UIM rules? Sorry if some may feel this is not the correct format for this topic but it needs to be a more open discussion.

Dominic DiFebo
24

[DiGia54D]

I have mixed feelings about this. I actually like both ways but for different reasons. I Like milling because you can get a feeling of the course while you wait for the 1 minute gun, But that's about the only reason. The rest of the time I am worried about blowing up or looking out for other boats. There are probably double the amount of euro style hydro's now than just last year. So yes I do think the Jetty start is the way to go.
I only can make 3-4 US Title series races a season anyway so what ever direction our Org goes, so will I.

[Smitty]

I always thought the clock start was the most interesting part of boatracing, and what sets it apart from other forms of motor racing, what makes hydroplane and runabout racing more interesting than tunnel boat racing. I wish I had had been a lot better at it myself, but it was still a blast, and half the fun of the race. Jetty starts and pace-boat starts are un-American. Instead of following the Europeans, USTS should insist that they follow our practices when racing here, as we have to follow their practices at their races. Why should the UIM dictate to everybody just because they have "Internationale" in their name? My opinion.

[Racerkyle20]

Because they're UIM.....You think trying to change a rule in APBA is hard, try changing a rule in UIM. Bob Wartinger can attest to how difficult this is.

APBA OSY did this a few years ago and I loved it. While I don't race OSY that much (BC of weight) I thought it was a blast to watch and any spectators we had at region 10 SOA events REALLY dug it.

In Seattle, Seafair with the unlimited is the biggest race of the year. City and local CBS TV get really involved. 2 years ago the F1 tunnel boats arrived as a second show. You wouldn't believe the amount of people that came up to me after the weekend, knowing that I race boats, and loved that part of Seafair. Mainly because of the jetty starts. They KNEW when the race started and didn't have to figure out when the clock hit zero from the beach watching the unlimiteds. Plus they dug the tunnel boats quickness.

I would suggest this for most pro classes for the reasons Dom already suggested. We've been talking about how far behind the US is compared to the Europeans for about 30 years.....boats and motors are finally starting to compete with them, now doing the starts more can help close that gap.

[Smitty]

Kyle, American motorcycle racing legend Kenny Roberts did the world of GP roadracing a huge favor the year after he first won the championship by standing up to the elderly, arrogant, wine-sipping, socialist (getting carried away here!) European men who had run that show in a dictatorial manner for years. Roberts led what amounted to a riders' strike, and the old men backed down.

As to Unlimiteds, for a year or two they were doing pace-boat starts, maybe to give the unskilled a chance. Chip Hanauer was asked what he thought by a TV reporter, and grumbled (something close to), "This is not boat racing as I know it."

Outboard racing is a little in-crowd hobby-sport for racers and their families. Yes, it would be very nice to attract throngs of spectators and deep-pockets sponsors and actual money. Ain't gonna happen. We can get somewhat more popular than we are, but not enough so that there is any good reason to make big changes in our hobby-sport to please some casual spectators who can't quite grasp how a clock start works. Again, my opinion.

[raceright]

I was unable to attend the annual US Title Series Meeting last weekend. Was the topic of jetty Starts for UIM classes discussed? If so what was the out come? Personally as a USTS member and a driver in 125H I think we are regressing by not adopting the international standards. The motors are being built and developed around that style of racing and the US teams are spending thousands or dollars when motors break because of the milling process. Over the last 5 years the majority of accidents happen on the way to or in the first turn. Speeds are increasing and the sport is becoming extremely dangerous with 12 350 hydros doing over 100 mph all going into the first turn together. And last but not least how can we compete on an international level when we don't start off the beach/jetty but once ever 3 years. Oh and Show, what better show then watching 10-20 boats starting from the beach!

What is your opinion on this situation? And can we as a USTS organization put it to a member vote to race 0125, 0250, 0350 UIM rules? Sorry if some may feel this is not the correct format for this topic but it needs to be a more open discussion.

Dominic DiFebo
24

Dom every point you submitted has a opposite point of view. Milling breaks motors what about rapid starts with 32 laps. seems to me that would do more harm than milling and 12 laps.
Accidents UIM has plenty that I have seen on different webb sites. speed is dangerous and 20 boats will add to that danger as much as the first turn.
As i have spoken to many sponsors in the USA many that understand the difference and many prefer the clock start as this is how all USA racing from trotters to Nascar start. With a flag. We at the USTS have been improving the use of the flag by just simply waving it at the start and the finish this Americans understand.

You want to put UIM on some kind of pedestal (something I do not do ) then god bless you but change for the very few that will travel to Europe to race will not happen.
Keep trying to race with jetty starts in Europe and race sites that will allow this like Mike Schmidt s sons do and good luck,those boys will win a world championship in time and if you follow there lead so will you with out changing the way the USTS does it. Several UIM drivers tried the clock start at lake Alfred and with limited success just like our own guys have when they go to Europe.
As with the 2008 elections the collective more often then not do not understand the significance of change. But membership Organizations suffer because members drive there own agenda and do not see the full picture.

[Dominc24Q]

Pat - We had a great discussion down in TN this year and I know we both want the best for boat racing. With that said this comment couldn't be more far from the truth. 32 laps? We run 4 laps or 6-8 in a world championship event. Take the milling crash down in FL, took a 5 boat field down to 3. Do we really want 3 boat heats? Is that good for spectators? More and more accidents are occurring during the milling process because when the engine fall below a certain RPM they either load up or heat up and stick a piston. So milling speeds have to be faster to avoid the engine failure. If you talk to sponsor about nascar starts then your are deceiving them and telling lies because a beach start is nothing like a nascar start. Could we find out how many accidents happen before the start of the race and how many happen on the way to or in the first start?
Do I put put UIM on a pedestal? Maybe I kinda of do... Have you seen how they honor the champions? The UIM Awards giving Gala is a black tie event that is equally as nice if not nicer then nascar. Here is the website - http://www.uimpowerboating.com/ the video is on there home page. Why do race boats? Do we do it for the money, of course not there is very little, I do commend the USTS for there efforts to give something back! We do it for the speed, competition, and for the respect of other driver and UIM does that better then any other organization on this planet! They are doing great things across the world to grow our sport. They are so well organized that boat racing becuase of them is now recognized by the Olympic committee and we could in our life time see Boat racing in the Olympic games. Do we fight the fact that they are doing more then we are to grow our sport and our American egos are so big we can join in the change? I have been racing 20 years across 3 different categories won more then 20 national titles on clock starts and I can honestly say the 30 seconds of quiet time prior to the flag going up is the best feeling I have ever had in Boat Racing.
I have raced in Euorope in a world Championship and it was freaking awesome and I hope to do it again this coming year. But why do we as Americans have to be so freaking stubborn to change? We are not talking about political change or Obama vs. the world. We are talking about Boat Racing the one thing that keeps us all together. Lets grow the sport and change as the world changes so my generations kids can also enjoy this awesome sport!

[David Weaver]

Personally, I enjoy both clock and "jetty" starts. The flying starts are very exciting and require a special level of skill. On the other hand, I probably have never participated in a more heart-pounding start than the 2008 250cc Worlds with 22 250cc's and the modified LeMans start. In terms of "our" racing in the US, the LeMans starts can be unduly damaging to the runabout and capsule boat engines. These participants have largely been clear that they prefer clock starts. For the open hydroplane classes, either starting method can work well. Which one we should use can depend on the venue. Also, we need to consider the race committees. Is it easier for them in terms of conducting the race to utilize one type of start throughout the day? With regards to the UIM races held here, "we" asked to hold the events understanding clearly what the rules are (so grousing about the type of start is out of place).

I greatly enjoyed this year's world championships and was disappointed that I was not prepared to participate. These are special opportunities to learn, compete and share the love of a sport across borders. Few motor sports offer this opportunity to its participants.

With regards to clock starts, we need to consider carefully a reasonable number of boats in a heat relative to distance from the start line to the first turn. When this distance is short, we tend to see boats "bunch up" while accelerating rapidly. This may be a cause of collisions.

Regardless of the type of start, it is my opinion that it is incumbent upon all the drivers to race in an alert and safe manner. And this is especially true during milling, where a considerable amount of uncoordinated navigating occurs (as opposed to the run up to the clock and thereafter).

I absolutely agree with Dom's comments as to the design of many of the new engines being geared towards LeMans starts. It may be that we need to tune-down a bit the newest designs to be more suitable to clock starts and milling at safe speeds.

[epugh66]

I love to watch five boats running around the lake before the race starts....... yawn...........
Worldwide, boat racing has many problems, the type of start is just one of them. I do think that if the USTS had continued with the jetty start after the first event at Acworth, Ga. in 1983, perhaps we wouldn't have been getting spanked in world championships since.

[raceright]

Dom Clarifying = 8 laps + 4 heats = 32 laps. For various different reasons 1100 hydro & 500 hydro have not had the fields we all would like but sponsors ask for these boats repeatedly. NASCAR --- I was trying to explain that the USTS clock starts with a flag waved is similar to NASCAR and understood by American motor heads.
Honoring Champions YES we do not do enough I was the commissioner in APBA the put through special Jackets for High Point champions along with Gold,Silver & Bronze colored award patches to be placed on these jackets-- But sorry to say our collective very seldom wear these to display there championships. I was also influential in having award ceremonies after a days racing at USTS events. We are improving in this area and over time maybe Teams will understand the importance of this as well as there appearance.
I raced UIM with a 1100 hydro the first year we had it at Lake Alfred,was boring to me. At 60 years old I managed to miss the podium buy finishing 4th an exhaust gasket blew having me loose the pipe allowing Yvonne to pass me on the last lap causing her to finish 3RD. I did have fun racing with her but the start was boring to me (sorry guys) .
There are those that feel the highest Award in the Pro (ALKY) category is the USTS Championship, many put this higher that winning the nationals and the Worlds. It is harder as it like NASCAR all races count for the season. I do not wish to belittle any type of Pro racing on this continent or any other in my opinion we have the best racing there is. Change BE careful as change is a double edged sword.

[chicks]

in regards to starts , all i have to say is this, how many years have we raced at depue ?i can remember when we used to have aprox 30 500s 30 350 and 40 250 s how many qualifying heat do you suppose we had in each class? have we have some accident ?sure we did. but all in all it has been pretty darn safe racing for 40 some years. we had 2 fatalities that i can remember . 1 was when a driver was testing , he blew it over , Jerry drake, and the other was , take a guess a lemans start. am i right ? in regards to the incident we had at the world this year , we had only 5 boats on the enormous race coarse, and two driver hit together as far as i am concerned there was no need for that to happen .i believe that some one was not paying attention on the water . there was plenty of water they never should have been that close together , and they both should have radios , if they did have radios some one on the beach were taking a power nap. we certainly have far less boats on the race course for one week end then we did say 10 15 or 20 years ago. in regards to milling i disagree with some one saying these motors need to wide open all the time is wrong, we have a new motor we can idle that thing around the race course just as good as a stock motor. in fact in the old days when we had 40 250s we had battery ignition that is when we could not let off because of loading up. with these new ignitions we we can start them right in the water 1 pull. most of the problem i see is drivers are not driving defensively , just like any other racing you have to know what other drivers will do . neil drove 360 sprint cars for aprox 10 years and that is what he had to learn first . needless to say he hit the wall many times until he learned to respect other drivers and learned what the other driver might do on a given situation .it does not matter what kind of racing you do , there are accidents. we had some bad ones when we ran formula one tunnels ,i mean really bad . lemans starts for that series. i remember two times at different formula races Neil got hit in the first turning pin sank the boat almost droned both times had no oxygen then both times canapy slammed shut could not get out. .there are good and bad with flying starts and lemans .one other thing about lemans start . can every one afford a $ 1,200 up and down lift ?does that also mean we all have to purchase new props for lemans start? what about the guys that can not afford a lift ? what do they do ? and buy the way i take it no runabouts will be doing lemans start . 8 or 10 700 runabouts going aprox 100 mph are not very dangerous right ? kneeling down no reinforced cockpit , no lemand for runabouts ? give me a break
in regards to professional awards , ect. they do over seas, i have to look at the VRP team that won most of the classes , did anybody take a look at how the looked ? well if you did not you should have. they were all dressed just like NASCAR teams . they looked like a pro. they made our teams look like armatures. usa teams blue jeans , raggy shorts and scrubby tea shirts. they sure made us look like bunch of amateurs on and off the race course. kay harrison and myself were one of the first ones to start uniforms for title series . at that time i was in charge to mandate that every team looked like a race team , title series sold all the teams there uniforms , when we came back to racing title series a few years ago we were so disappointed ln the way the race teams looked .wen we raced formula one everything was professional and you were treated like a professional . that is one of the main reasons why we like it so much. if you want to have a professional show and get good prize money like a pro and have great professional awards .then you have to act, and look like a pro.there are other categories where that does not mean anything but with the us title series it should come first above anything else. besides safety

[dwhitford]

Great rant, Chick, and right on target! As for milling accidents, I'm here to testify that if you tune your rig to both go fast and run at a reasonable rate b4 clock starts, you can minimize any possibility of crashes. ... About jetty starts, I have no input because I never made one, and they came after my time in the boat.

[chicks]

just wanted to say that there are some teams in title series that do look professional,but a good percent do not .

[Bill Tetro]

If you think you can idle around a new Pro motor, it will just be a matter of time before you burn it down.

[John Schubert]

just wanted to say that there are some teams in title series that do look professional,but a good percent do not .

The DiFebo team had nice apparel

[chicks]

i do agree that there are some good looking teams as i mentioned in my original statement , again i will say we can do better. that includes our own team also . our team has been very lax in the uniform dept.

[Dominc24Q]

This post was not created to talk about team uniforms and what has happened in the past 30 years. Our main focus as an organization should be around safety, growth, and progressing the sport. Since 2008 the 3 UIM classes 125H, 250H, 350H have all but a few moved to a euro style designed hulls. Along with the boats the engine design has also progressed and the factory engines are now more then every built for beach/Jetty starts. The engines should be purchased and allowed to race how the manufacturer intended them to run. Last time I checked there are not any production pro engines being built in the USA. I wish there were... I am NOT trying to change ALL USTS classes to jetty starts as that is just crazy, Runabouts are not design to do so. I would at least like the drivers to be able to vote on this issue. The last thing we want is people quitting the title series because of this issue. Unfortunately this is happening.

[raceright]

The USTS is successful because of the way it was structured. You elect a member to the Board and the board represents you. If you wish change then elect accordingly. Anyone that stops racing with the USTS because of how the race starts obviously will not have anywhere to race in the USA and will have to race in Europe (sounds costly) I kinda thing they have other reasons for not racing with the USTS. Uh if you are having trouble milling then you need to work on your Carb set up as Directed by Mr. Rossi. I stuck plenty with our 500 Rossi because of incorrect Jetting and this season we did not have this issue as Giuseppe sent us new set ups for carbs. Oh who in Pro runs an engine the way the MFG intended anyway. Thats stock outboard lolololol

[Smitty]

Those who say that the "milling around" period before a clock start is boring and confusing to some spectators, especially in classes that have (temporarily, we hope) few participants, have a good point. With heats often being shortened from five laps to four or even three laps at local races, it looks to the spectator as though there is as much milling around as actual racing.

Maybe this milling period should be shortened. In the mid-'60s in Reg. 10, we had a 5-minute "gun" before the start. By the late-'60s this was being shortened to four minutes, and this didn't present a big problem except to the alky drivers on cold days, in that era of marginal ignition systems. With today's ignitions being able to fire sparkplugs in heavy grease in freezing weather (or so it seems to an old guy), maybe the milling period could be shortened some more, at least to three minutes, maybe even less. And, with less time spent milling, maybe a lap could be added back to the length of the heat . . . .

IIRC, at some of the first UIM races held in this country, clock starts were used. Not grousing, just saying, . . . and suggesting that the USTS need not automatically defer to the UIM leadership, nor should it, or the UIM heads will assume that they have the final word on boatracing, just as happened in grands prix motorcycle racing until Kenny Roberts came along. As always, it's just another opinion, and the OP did ask for opinions.

Certainly it would be foolish to be so insular as not to consider good ideas from outside, expecially when the posters above who have raced in Europe have been so impressed by the experience.

(EDIT) Would someone give me an explanation of just how the new motors (the powerheads) are "designed for jetty-starts," and how "milling breaks motors"? So far as I know, rpm breaks motors, detonation breaks motors, and overheating the piston breaks motors. Unlike water-cooled motorcycles and other vehicles, you have an entire lake-full of water with which to address the second and third causes of motor breakage, if jetting and timing changes aren't sufficient. And high rpm isn't a big part of most of the milling period. So what am I missing here?

[walleye]

If we go to jetty starts and you weigh 200+ you may as well sell your equipment now. Frank

[bill van steenwyk]

I have read this thread with interest and have the following comments:

Fortunately, not all are as old as I, and some do not remember the UIM races held in the 1980's at Dayton, with the sanction paid for by E.E. Baldwin. Evidently those races were before the UIM mandated jetty or beach starts, as they were conducted with clock starts.

I remember that 28 or 29 350CC Hydros started with a clock start and almost as many 250CC Hydros started at a race that took place at the same venue but a different year. NO ACCIDENTS were caused by a clock start at either race. This may have been dumb luck, but I have a tendency to think it was by design. The officials at both those races took the time to instruct the drivers and the lake had enough room to allow all boats to mill safely.

If you want to see the starts, the video is on Boat Racing Facts and can be accessed by using the search function.

I do not know when or why the UIM made the rule change they did. If I had to guess, I would say that it was because the European drivers had their ass handed to them on a platter at the races that took place at Dayton, but if you were to ask them I am sure that safety had something to do with it, but I do not doubt that the fact that they had no experience with clock starts had something to do with it also.

I absolutely have no objection to anyone running all the jetty starts and practicing all they want, BUT YOU DO NOT HAVE TO DO IT AT A RACE!! Unlike a clock start, all you need is a beach, a boat and motor combo, some props and someone on the bank counting down for you to allow you to practice. How do you think the Europeans got so good at the starts. Not by just practicing at a race where they had them, I guarantee you.

The clock or flying start has been part of the race for the 60 something years I have been both racing and spectating, and prior to, and is an integral part of the race. The capability to time yourself, with boats cutting in front of you, and other things being part of the equation is the way I raced, and the way I would like to continue to see it done here in the US. There is just as much to the start as there is to the race and anyone who does not believe that has never come down on a clock.

I do not know enough about the present day motors used, but I did have both a GRM and a VRP
125 and won a National and World Championship in 2003 with Tim Brinkman driving, and I do not think they run much different that they did then. In fact if anything, they start easier, and do not load up as much. That is easy to tell from the bank, most recently at Lake Alfred. We practiced many times, not just at a race, to be able to come off the beach and accelerate well to the commitment or safety buoy, without having jetty or beach starts at all the USTS races at the time, and it paid off. So instead of griping about the way the races are started here in the US, just go to work and practice, practice, and practice some more. Be ready for the Europeans when they come back, or when you go there, but to blame it on USTS for not having jetty starts is putting the blame on the wrong organization. I

If you can't keep up, it is on you.

[Ralph Donald]

In 1980 I was invited to Berlin by Hans Krage to enter the MRC race at Oberhafel, which was a clock start with thirty boats entered. I had never been in a laydown hydro before and had only two laps of practice before the race. I was driving a Dannish with a 500 Koenig with Dieter Koenig as my pit crew. Oberhafel had these finger docks which were like many marinas here for pleasure boats. The boat was launched off of the dock just as they do now with jetty starts. UIM rules did not restrict starting after the one minute gun, so Dieter told me that he would watch the clock and when there was ten seconds to zero, he would start the motor launch the boat and I was to leave the jetty and make a 180 degree right turn and go straight towards the clock as fast as the boat would go. I did this for three heats and finished seventh overall.
I must say I was very impressed with the Dannish boat the way it flew over the rough water and driving laying down. Hans persuaded me to go with him the next weekend to Linz, Austria, where we raced on the Danube river. More rough water, but only eighteen boats starting on another clock start. This time I got on the podium finishing third.

That is preamble to what started a long and interesting time racing Europe. I didn't go back to Europe until 1984 for the 350 WC in Nottingham, England. I asked Dieter to have Dannish build me a boat suitable for a 350, since that was what I used in the USA and could bring my motor with me. When I arrived at Dieter's factory before the race the boat was ready and after assembly with the motor, I had my first ride in the infamous canal. What an experience, to go from near 100 mph to almost an idle, make a 180 and accelarate back to where you started. On to Nottingham where I had my first experience with a dead engine start and never had another clock start in Europe until I went to the 1987 500 WC in USSR. That's another story.
Dieter kept the boat for me in the shed in back of the factory and I continued go to races with that boat all over Europe. Hans stored it for me after Dieter died and I brought it to back to the USA in 2006 and gave it to R C Hawie for his collection.
I rambled on a bit, but it is to show my support for dead engine starts. Everyone is equal at the start leaving the beach or jetty, but it depends on an individuals talent for choosing props and setup as well as using the pipes.